Mercedes GP MGP W01

[marcush.]

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Ican´t see them waiting 3 months to decide if Bigois has what it takes.I feel they have already decided on personal changes or additions to the team as anything else would be a mess as the concept has to be developed now ..also from analysis of the current package and 2009 ....to see where and when it all went wrong and of course why.

the is not that slow in trap speed it has fundamnetal grip issues in slow corners
and is not outstanding in the quicker stuff ..but n wonder if they have the problem of saturated front tyres..theres no way to get a balance not in mechanical not aero when you are frontend grip limited...Kill the grip at the rear.. you are dead slow and sliding only..go for more and you are stuck with a dog of an understeerer.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush

That is the point. Mercedes will have now had to make the decision to stick with Bigois or to replace him.
My point is the next 3 months are pivotal in terms of design and design direction, and to replace someone in 3 months time would not be condusive to a harmonious work environment.

It looks as though they have faith in Bigois, we shall see wether this is a masterstroke or calamity.

[wesley123]

@JET; i know that it is, as it is regular for teams, but i ment that they shpuld just discard this years car and focus all out on next years. They have had tons of upgrades on the car, and with every upgrade they just seem to fall back.

[marcush.]

I would be as suspicious as Brawn ...why does al this not help? All other teams go through their upgrades and improve performance ,only Mercedes seem to tread on the spot.
Putting away your unloved toy and start the next one is a bit childish in my view as what will you do other and why? what makes you know the revised concept will work....or is this an assumption..I tink Mercedes are the one team (apart from TR and HRT that have not really found direction in their development this year and those two have obviously no recources for develpmentor have decided early on that the car offers no potential.

so to me they NEED to be sure where they went wrong before setting the concept for next year in stone.
Of course the weight distribution thing is now gone ...so one thing less to worry about.
But you can still look into fueltankposition to move your CG position with full tank....is the mandatory distribution with empty or full tank then?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@JET; i know that it is, as it is regular for teams, but i ment that they shpuld just discard this years car and focus all out on next years. They have had tons of upgrades on the car, and with every upgrade they just seem to fall back.

I dont think they fall back as such, just other make better advances elsewhere.
Look at Renault, they have had the F-duct in development for longer than Mercedes and look how it works?

My feelings is that the aero team Mercedes currently have, arent up to it. yea the blade design is a first, but what has it done? The reduced drag profile of that isnt transparent in straights. And like ringo, to his credit, has said from the outset, the nose philisophy is CALAMITOUS!
Im in agreement with you. Ditch 2010, forget about the EBD and just get on with 2011.

Also, Ferrari seem to be poaching Red Bull staff. Perhaps Merc could poach a few for themselves!

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush,

What can Mercedes change?

Ask yourself that. The aero is stymied by the nose. And the car is intrinsically out of kilter with its tyres. So the variables are increased exponentially everytime you add an upgrade.

Is the car quick because of the upgrade, or is it one of a thousand other factors?

[marcush.]

Marcush,

What can Mercedes change?

Ask yourself that. The aero is stymied by the nose. And the car is intrinsically out of kilter with its tyres. So the variables are increased exponentially everytime you add an upgrade.

Is the car quick because of the upgrade, or is it one of a thousand other factors?

so you shrug, close the book and hope for the best..
I´m quite sure that does not work .
In all honesty I don´t really see the nose as the core problem ,when Brawn states they cannot find more grip at the front because of the tyre saturation this looks like a different problem than lack of front aero.

I agree they do not have the best aero in terms of drag either but would count this towards a brickshaped tub and less sophistication in terms of reducing car crossection the whole car is a lot less sophisticated and detailed comparing it to McL or RedBull and this shows in Drag figures.
to put a blde is a nice feature maybe they would have equal to optimise what they had .

[aral]

Marcush,

What can Mercedes change?

Ask yourself that. The aero is stymied by the nose. And the car is intrinsically out of kilter with its tyres. So the variables are increased exponentially everytime you add an upgrade.

Is the car quick because of the upgrade, or is it one of a thousand other factors?

so you shrug, close the book and hope for the best..
I´m quite sure that does not work .
In all honesty I don´t really see the nose as the core problem ,when Brawn states they cannot find more grip at the front because of the tyre saturation this looks like a different problem than lack of front aero.

I agree they do not have the best aero in terms of drag either but would count this towards a brickshaped tub and less sophistication in terms of reducing car crossection the whole car is a lot less sophisticated and detailed comparing it to McL or RedBull and this shows in Drag figures.
to put a blde is a nice feature maybe they would have equal to optimise what they had .

It seems to be all to easy to blame the nose for all Mercedes problems. However a close study will show that it is really no lower than some others on the grid,but the paint job does give a false picture of the shape. But there is continuing comment about there being no downforce on the front, yet there has been very little developement of the front wing, whereas all the main competitors seem to be adding new pieces at every race. The aerodynamicist needs to concentrate on this area, and there maybe time to make some improvements to this wing. At the start of the season, we were promised a big change to the wing, but this never happened.

[marcush.]

what can you do if your front tyres will not take more load?

Clear Brawn statement: the front tyres are saturated already..they flatline when loaded harder ..so increasing downforce will not give more GRIP !!,but will only heat up the things .
If Reault can produce 1o or whatever new wings and even williams goes thru more than two iterations i´m sure Merc can at least produce as much ,but they obviously did not want to copy the RedBull wing or have a 3 element arrangement
to increase their front DF.

[toshinden]

Guys, i've never heard the Merc having a straight line test. Do they ever have it?

I was thinking the same thing upon hearing of the Ferrari straight line test. Personally I don't recall any.

I'd like to know as well.

same here mate. we know that they lack of straight line speed, so why don't they implement something and test it as we know that they always talking about the update from GP to GP.

i'm not a technical person to start with, but i don't see reasons why can't this test can be used for testing their updates.

[aral]

what can you do if your front tyres will not take more load?

Clear Brawn statement: the front tyres are saturated already..they flatline when loaded harder ..so increasing downforce will not give more GRIP !!,but will only heat up the things .
If Reault can produce 1o or whatever new wings and even williams goes thru more than two iterations i´m sure Merc can at least produce as much ,but they obviously did not want to copy the RedBull wing or have a 3 element arrangement
to increase their front DF.

Yes, it's a peculiar statement from Brawn, given that their excuses have been that there is not enough grip at the front, to allow schumi to get good turn-in. But then again, if the claim that their tyres are already overloaded, why not try to reduce wing down pressure?

[marcush.]

what can you do if your front tyres will not take more load?

Clear Brawn statement: the front tyres are saturated already..they flatline when loaded harder ..so increasing downforce will not give more GRIP !!,but will only heat up the things .
If Reault can produce 1o or whatever new wings and even williams goes thru more than two iterations i´m sure Merc can at least produce as much ,but they obviously did not want to copy the RedBull wing or have a 3 element arrangement
to increase their front DF.

Yes, it's a peculiar statement from Brawn, given that their excuses have been that there is not enough grip at the front, to allow schumi to get good turn-in. But then again, if the claim that their tyres are already overloaded, why not try to reduce wing down pressure?

You increase the load with added weight but of course this is not the same as downforce created load !
Downforce created load has no mass the weight you carry has indeed a mass and this mass will of course push you out of the corner .so even if you have the same vertical load still the cornering ability of this axle will not be equal.. So to compensate for this mass by reducing downforce will not help at all.They are stuck with this car and it is more than obvious that all the effort that goes in does not give half the benefit it should...so it is svery likely they cannot solve this riddle under the circumstances.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush

I agree there is no more points left in the tyres to allow for greater front end downforce. But there is a flaw.
The downforce/drag is probably the worst on the grid.
It has a very high drag profile around the frontal area, if Mercedes will not want to change the wing because it will add to then what must they do?

You are saying they should continue working on the W01. What will they learn with a car that was flawed to begin with? Not much.

They can correct their wrongs on next years car. They KNOW what is wrong. They just cannot fix it for whatever reason. I trust Brawn when he says that.

Its like putting too little yeast in bread when baking. It wont rise high enough, no matter what you do. But your next loaf you will know to add more!

I was optimistic for 2011, and I still hold some hope. But if no new addtions are made to the technical or aero staff, Then I see another long season for Mercedes.

[marcush.]

I have a totally different perspective there .
Why should brawn let his troops still work on updates at this timebeing sure the Problem canot be solved?
So somehow they seem to still have hope.. wich is good in terms of spirit but very worrying in terms of their understanding of the problem.
so to me they are still looking for something to get from this car ,otherwise they would race what they have,don´t you think?

For next year their big slip will be fixed ..as htere is only one weight distribution for all.
In fact if the tyre does not fit the mandatory distribution Merc has most experience for workarounds...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I have a totally different perspective there .
Why should brawn let his troops still work on updates at this timebeing sure the Problem canot be solved?
So somehow they seem to still have hope.. wich is good in terms of spirit but very worrying in terms of their understanding of the problem.
so to me they are still looking for something to get from this car ,otherwise they would race what they have,don´t you think?

For next year their big slip will be fixed ..as htere is only one weight distribution for all.
In fact if the tyre does not fit the mandatory distribution Merc has most experience for workarounds...

Marcush

Can you explain to me why Mercedes need to solve a weight distribution issue they will not have next year?
As I said they know the problem.......Why solve somthing that will have no bearing on 2011?