Mercedes GP MGP W01

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mx_tifoso
mx_tifoso
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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Because they might lose 4th place to Renault if they don't improve as much as the R30 is doing race by race. Constructors position means $$$. And what if they assume they won't have these problems next year and leave them unsolved, but then end up having them again?

And going by what Rosberg has said some late-2010 parts will have a bearing on the W02:
The team is continuing to work and we are still bringing improvements. A lot of them also because we need to try and get them to work properly for next year, which is also important. So it helps this year and next year.
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mep
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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Knowing some problems means nothing.
You must know the solution.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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mx_tifosi wrote:Because they might lose 4th place to Renault if they don't improve as much as the R30 is doing race by race. Constructors position means $$$.
Thats a given. There is no question Renault will finish ahead of Mercedes.
Schumacher wont mind toiling in the midfield for a few more races, but he will be mighty peeved if next year the excuses are that the W02 has suffered because Brawn told his lads to figure out the W01.

There is no reason to continue developing or "understanding" the W01 and 4th or 5th is irrelevant to Stuttgart.

I repeat, the problem is known. Yet they havent sorted out the INTRINSIC flaws of aero or tyres and we are 2/3s the wayu through the season.
I would say, as Brawn has already said, Lets forge a path for next year now.

The caveat is will these guys step up to the plate?
More could have been done.
David Purley

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747heavy
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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Why I agree with parts of JET´s reasoning, there are some other "problems" which, for me would be a much bigger concern then the weight distribution.
Speed of development, and the abbility to design and produce a part which actually works. With this I mean the EBD issues they have. Sorry, but in some respects MGP looks like a rookie team, and they are clearly not, budget or not budget, this is a people or a process problem.
It´s one thinkg, to make an EBD which may does not bring the perfomance step they have hoped for, but it´s another to make one which just deforms under heat, and don´t get a handle on this problem. I know, it´s a harsh word, but that´s just incompetence, and they better solve this one quickly, because it is not going away, not with Pirelli tires and not with a fixed CoG position. AT the moment, they just don´t look F1 standard IMHO, and this is a problem.
To be P4 would be just "acceptable" but if they lose it to Renault, that would be a blow, and giving up it´s just not the spirit to have in F1 - Sorry.
I agree, that they should not throw good money after bad money, but they need to get there engineerin and design processes up to F1 spec and some of there decision making in tems of strategy etc, also leaves things to be desired. So, in my book, they should fight nails and teeths for that P4, everything else would just be a looser attitude, not really suitable for F1. IMO
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marcush.
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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747heavy wrote:Why I agree with parts of JET´s reasoning, there are some other "problems" which, for me would be a much bigger concern then the weight distribution.
Speed of development, and the abbility to design and produce a part which actually works. With this I mean the EBD issues they have. Sorry, but in some respects MGP looks like a rookie team, and they are clearly not, budget or not budget, this is a people or a process problem.
It´s one thinkg, to make an EBD which may does not bring the perfomance step they have hoped for, but it´s another to make one which just deforms under heat, and don´t get a handle on this problem. I know, it´s a harsh word, but that´s just incompetence, and they better solve this one quickly, because it is not going away, not with Pirelli tires and not with a fixed CoG position. AT the moment, they just don´t look F1 standard IMHO, and this is a problem.
To be P4 would be just "acceptable" but if they lose it to Renault, that would be a blow, and giving up it´s just not the spirit to have in F1 - Sorry.
I agree, that they should not throw good money after bad money, but they need to get there engineerin and design processes up to F1 spec and some of there decision making in tems of strategy etc, also leaves things to be desired. So, in my book, they should fight nails and teeths for that P4, everything else would just be a looser attitude, not really suitable for F1. IMO

+1
that was my point since long time you just have to bite the bullet and find out what your problem is no excuses no rearguard fighting a honest and detailed analysis is what is necessary.and a plan how to lift the thing out of the swamp.
But even Nico has given up already not sseing any chance to beat renault.Maybe we will see Schumacher lifting the team now .

to specify wrong materials or underestimate loads not just once but several times is just amazing these days ...and is a weird contrast to them producing outstanding reliability with the car itself.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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I dont think that in 2 or 3 months you can understand a problem you have been trying to solve for 7 months.

747 hit the nail on the head. Somthing has gone wrong, not with the car but with the people. The people produce the car, and the car is that manifestation.
My underlying problem with the W01 is that with every upgrade, the car has stood still. The F-duct adds little, the EBD is calamitous(Brawn saying that mapping the hot air can be difficult....Is it really THAT hard?) and everything done so far has not worked as desired.

People are responsible for this.

Now there are reasons for everything. And I have gone into some reasons in great detail, like the halving of staff that were available to work on the W01 as the BGP001.
It also cannot be easy having around 40% less staff than Red Bull and Mclaren.

The acid test for Mercedes will be 2011. If this team of people cannot produce a competitive car Mercedes should do 1 of 2 things.
1. Leave
2. Gut the team and rebuild with year on year targets.

And finally does anyone have some concrete info on the resource restriction?
More could have been done.
David Purley

marcush.
marcush.
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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for sure Merc cannot and will not accept a year like this again.so it is make or break no doubt about it.
no question the team looks at a loss solving their items and on top of it they seem to be totally out of depth in predicting the behaviour AND endurance of new parts...they must have underestimated the EBD challebnges by a long shotand come up with too little too late ...which is a big reason for concern .

to me the non effectiveness of their aero development is tied to their mechanically wrong car layout.Aero gains will not show if your car is not able transmit the forces to the road...in the end its like you started with 40kg of extra weight...surely you can fiddle around and optimise but in the end the mass will drag your laptimes down even if considered the mass your laptimes were very good.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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The engineers are not as talented that is all.
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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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n smikle wrote:The engineers are not as talented that is all.
Disagree
More could have been done.
David Purley

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ringo
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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It's likely,
Look how long it's taking them to make the exhuast blown diffuser work properly.
They were one of the first teams to bring it to Valencia,and yet Mclaren, Force india, Williams and Renault have surpassed them in implementing a trouble free ebd.

It's a bad sign for next year, it's showing how slow they are to put on parts that work. How will their development success rate be next year?
After all these tries they can't even get an F duct right. :?
Shumacher should be watching these little things.

I believe Force India, Renault, sauber have far more talented engineers or engineering management, than Mercedes right now.
Mercedes have done nothing this year to suggest they are as quick on their feet as the other top 5 teams.

They need to fire half the old Honda staff and replace them with some actual Mercedes engineers. That Honda staff have proven from the beginning that they can't make a good car. 2004 BAR and last years money pit BRAWN are the only exceptions.
For Sure!!

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Byronrhys
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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Someone tell me, is the W01 f-duct going to be legal next year since its not like the others?

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Morteza
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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ringo wrote: 2004 BAR and last years money pit BRAWN are the only exceptions.
Completely agree with you, and I hated those Earth Dream car as well.
_________________________________
As it's been proved they can't develop through the season and last year they were caught by Red Bull and McLaren. Anything they have added like the F-duct and EBD has been inferior to other teams versions. All I wonder about is that Haug has been with McLaren long enough to understand the differences between a top team and middlefield ones, and Brawn's performance from last year was only a Honda/BAR team that got it better than the others. Did they buy Brawn only because of their 2009 success or separating from McLaren was considered before it?

BTW, what would have happened if they had had a shark fin on their car? Because all top and middle teams got it but Mercedes don't. What is it good for actually?
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ESPImperium
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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Byronrhys wrote:Someone tell me, is the W01 f-duct going to be legal next year since its not like the others?
From what i can see, its still allowed as there is no driver interaction with the part. But im now of the opinion that its time to allow the F-Duct to be mechanichaly operated on saftey grounds. Basically let the drivers have 30 seconds of F-Duct usage per lap, with unlimited KERS power for 11 laps of the race, id be happy with those for the current generation of cars.

But back to topic, the Mercedes Passive F-Duct is perfectly legal to my interpritation of the rules.

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mep
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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Did they buy Brawn only because of their 2009 success or separating from McLaren was considered before it?
When Mercedes considered coming back to F1 their first idea was to run a blank silver car under the name Mercedes without any additional sponsorship on it.
Just like the old silver arrows used to do.
Soon everybody figured out that this is not possible anymore so they choose a rather carefully attempt and supplied Sauber with engines branded „concepted by Mercedes-Benz".
Seems like they never forgot about their initial plan to have a own team. Some people criticized them to only print their name on a product made by Ilmor and McLaren. Especially after BMW bought the Sauber team the pressure might have rose up. Buying the Brawn team probably was the best change to an own team they got so far. The team and especially Brawn are proven championship winners. Also the Mercedes engine was already in use this car.
I don't know how much they paid but I can imagine it was a quite cheap deal because Brawn GP was standing on a wall with serious money trouble even after they won the championship.
I think it was a very smart move because it was secure, easy and cheap. Also the brands image rose by that especially after they could hire Schumacher who is promoting Mercedes cars instead of Ferraris now.
Until now the team has not failed. This year’s season was handicapped by the development delay due to the Brawn money lack.
Next year they have to prove themselves. Until then it makes no sense to have endless disputes here.

autogyro
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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ESPImperium wrote:
Byronrhys wrote:Someone tell me, is the W01 f-duct going to be legal next year since its not like the others?
From what i can see, its still allowed as there is no driver interaction with the part. But im now of the opinion that its time to allow the F-Duct to be mechanichaly operated on saftey grounds. Basically let the drivers have 30 seconds of F-Duct usage per lap, with unlimited KERS power for 11 laps of the race, id be happy with those for the current generation of cars.

But back to topic, the Mercedes Passive F-Duct is perfectly legal to my interpritation of the rules.
Not another gimmick to allow the aero nerds to continue domination.
Why cant we have proper racing and proper car design for a change.
Halve DF and get rid of all this model aeroplane irelevence.