Christian Horner under Investigation

[TFSA]

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Red Bull could ask each participant in the investigation for permission to hand over the portion of the report relating to their case to the FIA. As a data controller they can enter into agreement with the FIA (if one isn't already in place, which it likely would be given the existing data sharing) to ensure that the information is treated appropriately and suitably protected. Potentially they only need permission from each of the data subjects.

You would presume that the complainant would be happy to enter into that agreement. I do not believe Horner could refuse as a signatory to the sporting regulations and ISC. He has to comply with any investigation.

First of all: apoligies for late reply, I've been busy.

But the thing is: He really doesn't. He can deny it on privacy reasons, and take it to court if necessary. People seem to completely overestimate the FIAs reach on this. They do not have unlimited investigatory power, even if their rules says it.

It's completely reasonable to deny them access to texts of extremely private nature. To give a hyperbole, if the FIA requested to set up security cameras in Horners private home for the purpose of an investigation, by your logic, he wouldn't be able to deny that either, because the FIAs rules say he must comply with any investigation. Do you really think that would hold up in court? Of course not.

You could argue that they don't even need that - under the GDPR RBR need to demonstrate a lawful basis for sharing the information, which can include sharing private information with a regulator for the purposes of oversight. Article 6 sets out a couple of scenarios that can apply, including the data controller (Red Bull) needing to comply with a legal obligation (e.g. investigation under the ISC).

Not really. This is you completely misunderstanding GDPR.

If you have to boil down GDPR to two basic principles, it's "consent" and "necessity". As a rule of thumb, you need consent to share data, and in cases you don't, you can only do so if you can argue or demonstrate that it is absolutely necessary for the processing of the data.

The type of data is particularly relevant here. GDPR makes a lot of out protecting data, which carries a high degree of risk of the data subject. Specifically, data of highly private nature, including - but not limited to - nature relating to the sex life of a data subject is very highly protected in the GDPR. This is laid out in Article 9 of the GDPR which stipulates:

1. Processing of personal data revealing racial or ethnic origin, political opinions, religious or philosophical beliefs, or trade union membership, and the processing of genetic data, biometric data for the purpose of uniquely identifying a natural person, data concerning health or data concerning a natural person’s sex life or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.

Article 9 does contain a list of exceptions, but none of them apply here. This is the type of data that is classified for the highest protection under the GDPR, and a sporting body will have absolutely no legal claim to these data. Red Bull is required by law to protect these data. The reason the GDPR was crafted to begin with was to protect sensitive data like that in the first place from being shared, particularly for commercial interests.

And that's just looking at the GDPR. There's likely privacy laws that extend protections beyond the GDPR - but I'm not an expert on these, so i won't comment on them. And as discussed earlier, given that this is a case that traverses several jurisdictions (Austria, Great Britain, France, so both EU and non-EU states), it's a fairly complicated matter. I think even actual lawyers will be somewhat in the dark here. But i can't imagine it turning out in the FIAs favor if they try.

About the only thing I think could block the sharing of the report is if the report is owned entirely by Red Bull GmbH, where the legal entity that is signed up to the FIA's oversight is Red Bull Racing / Red Bull Technology. That latter entity is, however, ultimately Horner's employer and responsible for the decision to retain him. If they defer that decision directly to the parent company then they need to be able to justify that decision. Non-compliance / obstruction of an FIA investigation wouldn't be a good look for continuing to justify that decision.

Not when the non-compliance is done for legitimate legal reasons, which is what I've argued all the time.

I believe you've got this upside down. You believe that RBR has to justify keeping Horner. They don't. Red Bull Racing doesn't have to justify anything to the FIA. Rather, it's the FIA that has to justify their action if they wish to punish Horner or Red Bull. And if they can't investigate, they can't do that.

Horner has a reasonable right to privacy, especially for particularly personal matters, and any attempt to dive into those matters without a proper legal course - no matter what the FIA rules say - is gonna be overtuned in court. Any reasonable court will value Horners right to privacy - particularly about his sex life - higher than a sporting bodies interest.

Whatever the actual path that is taken I wouldn't say anything is clear cut at this stage, and none of us can definitively rule out any of those paths. The only thing that would be certain, should the FIA act, is that a lot of lawyers are going to earn some very big fees arguing over all the applicable legal agreements, rules, regulations, and laws that need to be complied with and taken into account.

Hardly. I think Horners lawyers would have a fairly easy time with this one.

Hence, the FIA is likely not to bother in the first place.

[Dunlay]

I think the narrative "average PA" is simply wrong. She is well in the middle of UKs money aristocracy...with millionaire friends and family all around.
We are not talking about a poor woman now fighting to feed her 3 children.

That makes me wonder why would someone do a PA job if so wealthy already or surrounded by millionaires? Usually, it's a job that pays around 30k to 40k GBP per annum.

https://uk.indeed.com/career/personal-a ... t/salaries

No way that the PA for a CEO of an F1 team is only on that wage. They would very much be on the higher end of the salary, plus all the travel and other perks that come from being part of the F1 circus.

If you can post some facts or provide some financial data, survey analysis etc., around what you are saying, it would add value for the discussion. May be the qualifications and critical skill sets that a PA has to possess, how niche and in short supply are those, that demands far higher compensation than what was mentioned on the link, might also help. Just denying doesn't make a good point.

[Redragon]

So the independent is reporting that. She just want to come back to work ( wasn’t such a bad environment after all i guess ). If she doesn’t win the appeal to come back to work she will bring the case to court. Nothing about harassment.

[Watto]

Its possible he makes these claims based on information but unable to provide substantiated sources for them but its hard to make concrete assertions based on their reporting if you care about credibility.

.
Let's see if there's a public denial and court action launched against them then. Whilst their reputation isn't the best, in stories relating to this case they do appear to have a decent first hand source feeding them information from the Austrian side of the business. The other details they've broken haven't been proven false thus far.

So I'll treat it with a pinch of salt whilst entertaining the possibility it is at least plausible that the story is accurate.

.
They were also the first to report that there was a power struggle going on within Red Bull when no one had heard about it and that turned out to be true much later.
They have had complaints lodged against them before, but it was not always honored. The above two links to articles are from 2005 and 2007.
There could also be some truth in this. They clearly have a source within RB.

He is also one of the most sued for libel authors in the Uk raises some pretty big red flags too, I don't really doubt he has a source but most have setted. But eaves be skepital at the very least there may be some embellishing the truth in there somewhere.

Also reports have said it was a KC that filed the independent report, Peter as best I can find is no KC very reverenced yes but no KC. Casts a little more doubt on al this - Though that said I a not sure if it was ever 100% confirmed it was a KC doing the report.


That being said, if we let that go it draw into one of thoughts I had on all this if it was purely a PR exercise to get hornet cleared. I would think there would be some leaks not leaing any derails of the report but question its motives so, it raises some issues there leak something to discredit the report publicly.

We have seen a fair bit of mis information and PR leaks from all sides in this knowing what is ore accurate isn't an easy task.

[Wouter]

Also reports have said it was a KC that filed the independent report, Peter as best I can find is no KC very reverenced yes but no KC. Casts a little more doubt on al this - Though that said I a not sure if it was ever 100% confirmed it was a KC doing the report.

.
Only Horner was talking about a KC. RB GmbH didn't mention a KC and I read nowhere anybody else talked about a KC, only Horner.
.

5 February. Statement from the Red Bull Company.

“After the company was informed of certain recent allegations, an independent investigation has been launched.
“This process, which is already underway, is carried out by an external, specialised lawyer.
“The company takes these matters extremely seriously and the investigation will be completed as soon as practical as possible.
It would not be appropriate to comment further at this time.”

[Watto]

Also reports have said it was a KC that filed the independent report, Peter as best I can find is no KC very reverenced yes but no KC. Casts a little more doubt on al this - Though that said I a not sure if it was ever 100% confirmed it was a KC doing the report.

.
Only Horner was talking about a KC. RB GmbH didn't mention a KC and I read nowhere anybody else talked about a KC, only Horner.
.

5 February. Statement from the Red Bull Company.

“After the company was informed of certain recent allegations, an independent investigation has been launched.
“This process, which is already underway, is carried out by an external, specialised lawyer.
“The company takes these matters extremely seriously and the investigation will be completed as soon as practical as possible.
It would not be appropriate to comment further at this time.”

I am aware.


Just there are plenty of references around that the report was done by a KC if this was the case it rules Peter out. BBC, Sky, Saward, thejudge13 amoungst others all refer to a KC at the ones doing the report it could be as easily as it started with one and the others just copied.

But look too at articles that sounded like they had a source the F1 insider one a few weeks ago that said Yoovidhya had turned on Horner and was prepating to sack him (the same one that mentioned the U2 link) that was supposed to happened before Melbourne. Melbourne has been and gone and Horner remains more Yoovidhya remains supportive of Horner by recent reports. Somtimes a little bit of information is a very dangerous tool. He may be right on the money, some of the article makes sense to me

Just leaks so often serve a purpose that isn't always balanced nor accurate.

I am

[PapayaFan481]

That makes me wonder why would someone do a PA job if so wealthy already or surrounded by millionaires? Usually, it's a job that pays around 30k to 40k GBP per annum.

https://uk.indeed.com/career/personal-a ... t/salaries

No way that the PA for a CEO of an F1 team is only on that wage. They would very much be on the higher end of the salary, plus all the travel and other perks that come from being part of the F1 circus.

If you can post some facts or provide some financial data, survey analysis etc., around what you are saying, it would add value for the discussion. May be the qualifications and critical skill sets that a PA has to possess, how niche and in short supply are those, that demands far higher compensation than what was mentioned on the link, might also help. Just denying doesn't make a good point.

Yeah, I have better things to do than that, but if you seriously believe that a Personal Assistant to the CEO of an F1 team is on less the average UK wage then you're completely out of touch with what the role entails. We're not talking your average PA here, we're talking about someone who basically organises Horner's work life.

But here, rather than search for a basic PA salary, how about look at similar level jobs....

https://uk.indeed.com/m/jobs?q=Executiv ... 0&l=London

[Mosin123]

That makes me wonder why would someone do a PA job if so wealthy already or surrounded by millionaires? Usually, it's a job that pays around 30k to 40k GBP per annum.

https://uk.indeed.com/career/personal-a ... t/salaries

No way that the PA for a CEO of an F1 team is only on that wage. They would very much be on the higher end of the salary, plus all the travel and other perks that come from being part of the F1 circus.

If you can post some facts or provide some financial data, survey analysis etc., around what you are saying, it would add value for the discussion. May be the qualifications and critical skill sets that a PA has to possess, how niche and in short supply are those, that demands far higher compensation than what was mentioned on the link, might also help. Just denying doesn't make a good point.

i wouldnt travel the world with out my family for much of the year for 30 k a year, can get that picking and packing haha

[Dunlay]

No way that the PA for a CEO of an F1 team is only on that wage. They would very much be on the higher end of the salary, plus all the travel and other perks that come from being part of the F1 circus.

If you can post some facts or provide some financial data, survey analysis etc., around what you are saying, it would add value for the discussion. May be the qualifications and critical skill sets that a PA has to possess, how niche and in short supply are those, that demands far higher compensation than what was mentioned on the link, might also help. Just denying doesn't make a good point.

i wouldnt travel the world with out my family for much of the year for 30 k a year, can get that picking and packing haha

There are many people who love travelling as part of their jobs. Obviously they cannot take their families with them, but they like their travel jobs. People in sales, marketing, event managers etc., Those are not exactly super high paying jobs. But that's part of the deal that you get to travel while you also do the job. If you look at F1 mechanics, theirs is a laborious and mission critical job and doesn't exactly come with an earth shattering pay scale. Folks in software engineering makes more than that, while being stationed at home/office. It's passion for those mechanics and travelling comes as part of the their passionate job. They do live away from their families for such a long duration throughout the year. Same applies for a PA too.

https://uk.indeed.com/career-advice/pay ... anics-make

https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-f1-me ... the-sport/

[Mosin123]

If you can post some facts or provide some financial data, survey analysis etc., around what you are saying, it would add value for the discussion. May be the qualifications and critical skill sets that a PA has to possess, how niche and in short supply are those, that demands far higher compensation than what was mentioned on the link, might also help. Just denying doesn't make a good point.

i wouldnt travel the world with out my family for much of the year for 30 k a year, can get that picking and packing haha

There are many people who love travelling as part of their jobs. Obviously they cannot take their families with them, but they like their travel jobs. People in sales, marketing, event managers etc., Those are not exactly super high paying jobs. But that's part of the deal that you get to travel while you also do the job. If you look at F1 mechanics, theirs is a laborious and mission critical job and doesn't exactly come with an earth shattering pay scale. Folks in software engineering makes more than that, while being stationed at home/office. It's passion for those mechanics and travelling comes as part of the their passionate job. They do live away from their families for such a long duration throughout the year. Same applies for a PA too.

https://uk.indeed.com/career-advice/pay ... anics-make

https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-f1-me ... the-sport/

But your using Indeed which is telling you the " UK " average.

And another website that is using the US average........

Some thing tells me Bob down at quick fit earns much less than Steve the Redbull super machanic........

the Fire Extinguisher Man is on 30 k a year, the lollipop man 70 k a year, jack men 150k..... tyre changers 350k....... tyre carriers 250 k.......

Some how i dont think the mechanic is earning just much as the dude who just holds the fire extinguiser.

[Dunlay]

i wouldnt travel the world with out my family for much of the year for 30 k a year, can get that picking and packing haha

There are many people who love travelling as part of their jobs. Obviously they cannot take their families with them, but they like their travel jobs. People in sales, marketing, event managers etc., Those are not exactly super high paying jobs. But that's part of the deal that you get to travel while you also do the job. If you look at F1 mechanics, theirs is a laborious and mission critical job and doesn't exactly come with an earth shattering pay scale. Folks in software engineering makes more than that, while being stationed at home/office. It's passion for those mechanics and travelling comes as part of the their passionate job. They do live away from their families for such a long duration throughout the year. Same applies for a PA too.

https://uk.indeed.com/career-advice/pay ... anics-make

https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-f1-me ... the-sport/

But your using Indeed which is telling you the " UK " average.

And another website that is using the US average........

Some thing tells me Bob down at quick fit earns much less than Steve the Redbull super machanic........

the Fire Extinguisher Man is on 30 k a year, the lollipop man 70 k a year, jack men 150k..... tyre changers 350k....... tyre carriers 250 k.......

Some how i dont think the mechanic is earning just much as the dude who just holds the fire extinguiser.

The idea that a PA can hire an expensive PR agency with an average white collar job salary is the primary point. A job that gets paid lower than the engineers and mechanics with serious skill sets, is some how acceptable.

[Watto]

There are many people who love travelling as part of their jobs. Obviously they cannot take their families with them, but they like their travel jobs. People in sales, marketing, event managers etc., Those are not exactly super high paying jobs. But that's part of the deal that you get to travel while you also do the job. If you look at F1 mechanics, theirs is a laborious and mission critical job and doesn't exactly come with an earth shattering pay scale. Folks in software engineering makes more than that, while being stationed at home/office. It's passion for those mechanics and travelling comes as part of the their passionate job. They do live away from their families for such a long duration throughout the year. Same applies for a PA too.

https://uk.indeed.com/career-advice/pay ... anics-make

https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-f1-me ... the-sport/

But your using Indeed which is telling you the " UK " average.

And another website that is using the US average........

Some thing tells me Bob down at quick fit earns much less than Steve the Redbull super machanic........

the Fire Extinguisher Man is on 30 k a year, the lollipop man 70 k a year, jack men 150k..... tyre changers 350k....... tyre carriers 250 k.......

Some how i dont think the mechanic is earning just much as the dude who just holds the fire extinguiser.

The idea that a PA can hire an expensive PR agency with an average white collar job salary is the primary point. A job that gets paid lower than the engineers and mechanics with serious skill sets, is some how acceptable.

I guess it points to there being help offered from somewhere. Her links to U2, possibly a benefactor who might takes either a share of publicity if she wins her appear womens rights etc -outside chance its the Austrian side of RB.


I am a little curious as to whether the she want to return to work is just a PR leak reads as (and this could be very true at the same time) I as happy to come to work, work with my boss who did the wrong thing, but he suspended be once it became too public ' gives the impression she has done nothing at all wrong but this big bad multi million dollar company sidelined her- actually a very believable and I am sure a common enough way some employees can be treated

[Watto]

The Business F1 magazine is now online but I don't have a subscription so can't read much other than the 'free' secton but addresses the KC thing saying basically Horner/RBR lied and its not a KC but rather just Peter Blake Turned with a firm of 5 people. Also appears to be a bit of a hit piece on Yoovidhya looking into his history.

[PapayaFan481]

There are many people who love travelling as part of their jobs. Obviously they cannot take their families with them, but they like their travel jobs. People in sales, marketing, event managers etc., Those are not exactly super high paying jobs. But that's part of the deal that you get to travel while you also do the job. If you look at F1 mechanics, theirs is a laborious and mission critical job and doesn't exactly come with an earth shattering pay scale. Folks in software engineering makes more than that, while being stationed at home/office. It's passion for those mechanics and travelling comes as part of the their passionate job. They do live away from their families for such a long duration throughout the year. Same applies for a PA too.

https://uk.indeed.com/career-advice/pay ... anics-make

https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-f1-me ... the-sport/

But your using Indeed which is telling you the " UK " average.

And another website that is using the US average........

Some thing tells me Bob down at quick fit earns much less than Steve the Redbull super machanic........

the Fire Extinguisher Man is on 30 k a year, the lollipop man 70 k a year, jack men 150k..... tyre changers 350k....... tyre carriers 250 k.......

Some how i dont think the mechanic is earning just much as the dude who just holds the fire extinguiser.

The idea that a PA can hire an expensive PR agency with an average white collar job salary is the primary point. A job that gets paid lower than the engineers and mechanics with serious skill sets, is some how acceptable.

Again, you're belittling the work of an Executive PA. That role itself has a serious skill set. No-one is suggesting she's on millions, or that she isn't getting help from somewhere else paying for the PR firm. I would put good money on her being on at least as much as some of the better paid engineers.

[Dunlay]

But your using Indeed which is telling you the " UK " average.

And another website that is using the US average........

Some thing tells me Bob down at quick fit earns much less than Steve the Redbull super machanic........

the Fire Extinguisher Man is on 30 k a year, the lollipop man 70 k a year, jack men 150k..... tyre changers 350k....... tyre carriers 250 k.......

Some how i dont think the mechanic is earning just much as the dude who just holds the fire extinguiser.

The idea that a PA can hire an expensive PR agency with an average white collar job salary is the primary point. A job that gets paid lower than the engineers and mechanics with serious skill sets, is some how acceptable.

Again, you're belittling the work of an Executive PA. That role itself has a serious skill set. No-one is suggesting she's on millions, or that she isn't getting help from somewhere else paying for the PR firm. I would put good money on her being on at least as much as some of the better paid engineers.

There is nothing like belittling. The employment ecosystem has a structure of remuneration, based on skillsets, qualifications, specializations required and the availability of these combinations of skill sets for a job and the criticality of the job itself. The critical the job function, the higher the remuneration would be. The higher the supply of such candidates, the lower the remunerations gets. In such a framework (not my opinion), a Personal Assistant's job is not regarded as a highly skilled job like that of a specialized engineer. PA function usually gets categorized into Miscellaneous job functions, not into specialization departments like Science or Engineering where roles like Data Scientists, Research Analysts, Aero Engineers or Performance Analysts belong to. That's the point.

Here is a simple search on LinkedIn for PA job postings in UK. Look through this and get the average, real time salary offering.

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search/?c ... fresh=true

For a reference, here is the job search link for Mechanical Engineer. You can compare the skill sets and salary offerings. (There are a few open positions in Red Bull racing and McLaren in that search! )

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search/?c ... fresh=true