nokivasara wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 15:48Also the intake air temperature goes up if the pressure is increased. I must be reading it wrong...
Yep, no way of cheating the ideal gas law.
nokivasara wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 15:48Also the intake air temperature goes up if the pressure is increased. I must be reading it wrong...
Yep. Air conditioners work on the principle of compressing gas and expanding it. Anyone who has held a compressor nozzle against their hand and felt how cool it was, while the compressor tank is warm to touch knows this.dans79 wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 16:22nokivasara wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 15:48Also the intake air temperature goes up if the pressure is increased. I must be reading it wrong...
Yep, no way if cheating the ideal gas law.
You would lose that bet. At almost all circuits, Singapore is an exception, they fail to recover 2 MJ from braking. In most places 1 MJ is a stretch.
Red Bull query Mercedes F1 engine sensors with FIA
The competitive niggle between Formula 1 title rivals Red Bull and Mercedes appears to be continuing as Red Bull has made a query to the FIA regarding the sensors of the Mercedes power unit that record the engine’s inlet plenum temperatures, The Race has learned.
The lower the temperature, the more dense the oxygen content and the greater the combustion will be. By regulation, the plenum air temperature must be at least 10-deg above the external ambient temperature (as an average over the lap) and the FIA sensors track this to ensure compliance.
The Mercedes inlet plenum is believed to have walls that can be filled with super-cooled liquid.
This would more effectively cool the air within the plenum chamber, which would be useful in the acceleration phase but would only be a brief burst as the super-cooling of the liquid would not be sustained.
This would be consistent with the observation Red Bull has made that the Mercedes power unit has a big power delivery on initial acceleration phases which then dampens out.
It is important to emphasise that super-cooling of the liquid in walls in the plenum does not imply that the air within the plenum is below the legal minimum temperature. But it would certainly cool it more effectively.
Red Bull is questioning whether the temperature sensors are situated in a place that would capture any dipping below the legal minimum.
Other teams are aware of the theory but are wary of buying into it without a fuller understanding of the precise mechanism.
zibby if that's the case, I foresee a few people on that other site being quite upset.zibby43 wrote: ↑03 Sep 2021, 08:26Merc PU is good-to-go.
https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2021 ... ull-6.html
In summary, Merc were able to get on top of the new plenum design and utilize more powerful engine modes in the race in Hungary. Modes they hadn’t used all season in a race setting (Strat 4; HPP 7). RBR took notice that now Merc ruled the straights with powerful acceleration.
The article also points out that Merc have always toed the line with respect to PU legality.
“It is necessary to underline another evidence: until proven otherwise, Mercedes has always operated within the framework of legality . This is because the German engineer forged the engine with the regulation in hand. A PU which, among other things, has received all the necessary and required technical approvals in a year in which, due to a technical freeze, the checks are more stringent . On the other hand, if the FIA has never found anomalies and the temperatures recorded by the sensor have not triggered alarms, there is not too much room for the hypothetical Red Bull appeal to be accepted.”
However, even in the remote possibility that Merc were operating in a gray area, there’s no way that Merc could redesign the PU for itself or customer teams this year, so the FIA would do nothing about it this year. It’s not only the PU that would need to change, but everyone’s chassis, too.
TL; DR: Merc are probably 100% legal, but even if they are more in a gray area, then they’re still good-to-go.
Quite probably true- and look at how they cleared DAS with the powers that be before implementing it- but it's certainly not going to stop people throwing all sorts of accusations around, as history tells us!djones wrote: ↑03 Sep 2021, 14:41If there is one thing we have learnt about Mercedes it's that they do everything as per the rules. This is probably to protect brand reputation.
I know people will be furiously typing things like "oil-burning" but the truth is that was only ever theory based on the back of the fact the Mercedes engine was just really good compared to the rest. They were not the ones with extra oil tanks etc.
Anyway, my point is I guarantee whatever they are doing with the temperatures (if anything) is totally within the rules.
Yea, That's one of the problems with the super cooled line of thought. The other is that the coolant but be exceptionally pure, and it must stay that way. If the water has any impurities in it, or the container its stored in has any, you have a point of nucleation and the whole concept goes out the window.SiLo wrote: ↑03 Sep 2021, 10:16Where are they storing this "super-cooled" fluid that could sit in the walls of the plenum without heating up drastically over a race or even a few laps? The entire engine area runs very hot, I find it hard to believe they could be doing something like that, and find it more probably that reliability and software changes have led to them finally unlocking the inherent performance in the engine.