2025 McLaren F1 Team

[mwillems]

Another nothing burger in a long line of nothing burgers as RB scrabble to find a way to pull us back, in light of the fact they aren't yet able to pull themselves forward.

The article says multiple teams complained. Also, every team -not just RB- both tries to hold back the leading team and improve themselves. That is f1.

I just re-read and still can't see this.

It says our Rivals complained. RB are our Rivals, in this case it is plural because the rival is a collective group.

No other teams mentioned us and Toto has explicitly defended us, naming RB as the team making complaints about Mclaren. The article does state that RB were active in raising concerns and provided the thermal images to the FIA.

[mwillems]

Another nothing burger in a long line of nothing burgers as RB scrabble to find a way to pull us back, in light of the fact they aren't yet able to pull themselves forward.

I think that it's not a nothingburger. These kinds of inquiries always have consequences. It's just a matter of when those consequences become realized. Thanks to rival teams, the FIA have now had a detailed look at the brake cooling system of the Mclaren. It means the FIA understand much more intimately what is going on and gives the FIA insights into how to break Mclaren's dominance, should they have the desire to do so...

The FIA has a long history of targeted regulations changes aimed at leveling the playing field. One day it will be Mclaren's turn again, just as the likes of Mclaren, Red Bull, Ferrari, and Mercedes were hobbled in the past.

Also, as bluechris said, FIA can say one thing now, and something completely different weeks later. They did it with the flex wings (cleared it, then changed the test). They did it with Mclaren's mini-DRS (cleared it, then banned it). It certainly won't be the last time that they flip flop on an unsuspecting team. The most important outcome for rivals was to put it on the FIA's radar. I feel it won't be the last time that we hear about it. The genie is out and you can't expect it to just go back in the bottle.

These are very different things. You can see the wings and make a spirited argument. You have no idea what to complain about with the ducts. The FIA may or may not ban them next year but I doubt that decision was ever going to have any relationship to what we were doing, unless it really was illegal. They'll make that decision based on whether it improves the show or not, and not anything to do with RBs noise.

[Emag]

Another nothing burger in a long line of nothing burgers as RB scrabble to find a way to pull us back, in light of the fact they aren't yet able to pull themselves forward.

I think that it's not a nothingburger. These kinds of inquiries always have consequences. It's just a matter of when those consequences become realized. Thanks to rival teams, the FIA have now had a detailed look at the brake cooling system of the Mclaren. It means the FIA understand much more intimately what is going on and gives the FIA insights into how to break Mclaren's dominance, should they have the desire to do so...

The FIA has a long history of targeted regulations changes aimed at leveling the playing field. One day it will be Mclaren's turn again, just as the likes of Mclaren, Red Bull, Ferrari, and Mercedes were hobbled in the past.

I doubt they do anything about it this year though. In the end, unless it was proven illegal, it definitely isn't a decision it does RB any favors. They're no closer to figuring out how exactly it works (as far as we know), and they couldn't take it away from their competitors either. I guess the only hope now, is for the Spain TD to actually make a dent to McLaren's performance. Even then, I really doubt "McLaren will be nowhere" after Spain as some RedBull people believe.

I had my share of doubt on McLaren's seemingly "nonchalant" attitude on the whole thing, but after seeing the pace advantage they have on favorable conditions, then I think it was pretty clear for all to see that the flexing front wing is far from being the silver bullet in that car.

At the end of the day, F1 is a really fast-paced sport. I get your point about FIA possessing the trigger to kill McLaren's dominance if they wish to do so, but if McLaren are smart and resourceful about it (and these last 3 years have proven they are), they would be working on the next clever/big thing to build a cushion if and when that happens. You're dead meat if you think you're comfortable and sit on your a** in F1 anyway.

After reading the article, a rare Toto Wolf W popped up :

But team boss Toto Wolff was emphatic on Sunday night that McLaren's advantage was down to it simply doing a better job than anybody else - rather than operating outside of the regulations.

Both Mercedes and Red Bull have previously enjoyed periods of clear dominance, yet no one immediately accused them of breaking the rules. Now that McLaren has found themselves in a similar position, they’re being treated as guilty before any evidence has been presented. It’s commendable that Mercedes can acknowledge that at times their rivals may have simply been a bit more innovative. There’s no need to jump to the conclusion that McLaren is cheating, something Red Bull has been loudly suggesting since last year. This all stems from a rear wing innovation that fell into a regulatory gray area and was removed after just two races, during which it only offered minimal advantage. For a team that often claims to blame the game, not the player, you’d expect Red Bull to show a bit more integrity.

If you trace back McLaren's trajectory since 2018, I don't know why people are surprised they are in this position right now. The amount of investment that has gone into that team is crazy. The Bahraini spared no expense. They're operating with the latest & greatest when it comes to facilities and they've poached some of the most talented engineers in the grid. It would be a colossal failure if they weren't at the very least a serious title contender by now.

McLaren had a long 10 years of being lost, directionless, stuck in old ways, but worst of all, devoid of investment and money. When Zak Brown took the helm (and Bahraini bought the team), all of that changed. It just took some time for that change to materialize on track.

[AR3-GP]

Another nothing burger in a long line of nothing burgers as RB scrabble to find a way to pull us back, in light of the fact they aren't yet able to pull themselves forward.

I think that it's not a nothingburger. These kinds of inquiries always have consequences. It's just a matter of when those consequences become realized. Thanks to rival teams, the FIA have now had a detailed look at the brake cooling system of the Mclaren. It means the FIA understand much more intimately what is going on and gives the FIA insights into how to break Mclaren's dominance, should they have the desire to do so...

The FIA has a long history of targeted regulations changes aimed at leveling the playing field. One day it will be Mclaren's turn again, just as the likes of Mclaren, Red Bull, Ferrari, and Mercedes were hobbled in the past.

Also, as bluechris said, FIA can say one thing now, and something completely different weeks later. They did it with the flex wings (cleared it, then changed the test). They did it with Mclaren's mini-DRS (cleared it, then banned it). It certainly won't be the last time that they flip flop on an unsuspecting team. The most important outcome for rivals was to put it on the FIA's radar. I feel it won't be the last time that we hear about it. The genie is out and you can't expect it to just go back in the bottle.

These are very different things. You can see the wings and make a spirited argument. You have no idea what to complain about with the ducts. The FIA may or may not ban them next year but I doubt that decision was ever going to have any relationship to what we were doing, unless it really was illegal. They'll make that decision based on whether it improves the show or not, and not anything to do with RBs noise.

It doesn't matter if it's an issue of legality or not as that's not always why regulations are "adjusted". I don't feel that Mclaren is doing anything illegal (but I have no credibility). The FIA also don't feel that there is anything illegal but that has nothing to do with the potential consequences of making the FIA "wiser" about how it all really works.

Red Bull have handed over a treasure map with an "x" that marks the spot. Those thermal imaging photos that Red Bull turned in will have been talked about at other teams. You can already see the effect that it's had on the discussion in this forum and how it's helping to unravel what makes the MCL-39 different.

I suspect Mclaren would be happier if the FIA and rivals were still clueless but the thermal imaging photos tell quite the story. The FIA may seek to "improve the show" at a later time, but they have to know "how" in order to do so. Red Bull's efforts were not wasted imo. All of the non-Mclaren teams have benefitted from this fishing expedition in one way or another. Now they know the areas to focus on. It's also possible that consequences of the FIA's new understanding may be seen at a later point in time.

I get that some are caught up in the "aha!, the FIA sticks it to Horner!", but I feel that is a very short-sighted viewpoint. This inquisition has very complex consequences.

[Farnborough]

Another nothing burger in a long line of nothing burgers as RB scrabble to find a way to pull us back, in light of the fact they aren't yet able to pull themselves forward.

I think that it's not a nothingburger. These kinds of inquiries always have consequences. It's just a matter of when those consequences become realized. Thanks to rival teams, the FIA have now had a detailed look at the brake cooling system of the Mclaren. It means the FIA understand much more intimately what is going on and gives the FIA insights into how to break Mclaren's dominance, should they have the desire to do so...

The FIA has a long history of targeted regulations changes aimed at leveling the playing field. One day it will be Mclaren's turn again, just as the likes of Mclaren, Red Bull, Ferrari, and Mercedes were hobbled in the past.

I doubt they do anything about it this year though. In the end, unless it was proven illegal, it definitely isn't a decision it does RB any favors. They're no closer to figuring out how exactly it works (as far as we know), and they couldn't take it away from their competitors either. I guess the only hope now, is for the Spain TD to actually make a dent to McLaren's performance. Even then, I really doubt "McLaren will be nowhere" after Spain as some RedBull people believe.

I had my share of doubt on McLaren's seemingly "nonchalant" attitude on the whole thing, but after seeing the pace advantage they have on favorable conditions, then I think it was pretty clear for all to see that the flexing front wing is far from being the silver bullet in that car.

At the end of the day, F1 is a really fast-paced sport. I get your point about FIA possessing the trigger to kill McLaren's dominance if they wish to do so, but if McLaren are smart and resourceful about it (and these last 3 years have proven they are), they would be working on the next clever/big thing to build a cushion if and when that happens. You're dead meat if you think you're comfortable and sit on your a** in F1 anyway.

After reading the article, a rare Toto Wolf W popped up :

But team boss Toto Wolff was emphatic on Sunday night that McLaren's advantage was down to it simply doing a better job than anybody else - rather than operating outside of the regulations.

Both Mercedes and Red Bull have previously enjoyed periods of clear dominance, yet no one immediately accused them of breaking the rules. Now that McLaren has found themselves in a similar position, they’re being treated as guilty before any evidence has been presented. It’s commendable that Mercedes can acknowledge that at times their rivals may have simply been a bit more innovative. There’s no need to jump to the conclusion that McLaren is cheating, something Red Bull has been loudly suggesting since last year. This all stems from a rear wing innovation that fell into a regulatory gray area and was removed after just two races, during which it only offered minimal advantage. For a team that often claims to blame the game, not the player, you’d expect Red Bull to show a bit more integrity.

If you trace back McLaren's trajectory since 2018, I don't know why people are surprised they are in this position right now. The amount of investment that has gone into that team is crazy. The Bahraini spared no expense. They're operating with the latest & greatest when it comes to facilities and they've poached some of the most talented engineers in the grid. It would be a colossal failure if they weren't at the very least a serious title contender by now.

McLaren had a long 10 years of being lost, directionless, stuck in old ways, but worst of all, devoid of investment and money. When Zak Brown took the helm (and Bahraini bought the team), all of that changed. It just took some time for that change to materialize on track.

I fully acknowledge McL current position, hard work, innovation, result therefore achieved. Make no implications of cheating either ... but be realistic in "adoption" of their history in that some considerable weight of their underperforming period since last championship was as direct result of cheating then, to be fined a massive amount and to compromise financially them for some considerable time.

Many seem to like pointing at opponent team with accusations of poor behaviour, when in reality this team has confirmed record of just such behaviour.

It doesn't do any favour to put them on such a high pedestal in leverage against others of accusations. Some sense of proportion would be welcome here.

They absolutely deserve their current performance , but with many contributing on here seeming to have personal inferiority views in needing to voice continuously a moral concern about other teams.

Its always been like this in teams contending the championship ..... the Hunt vs Lauda year being particularly so if anyone remembers that.

[mwillems]

I think that it's not a nothingburger. These kinds of inquiries always have consequences. It's just a matter of when those consequences become realized. Thanks to rival teams, the FIA have now had a detailed look at the brake cooling system of the Mclaren. It means the FIA understand much more intimately what is going on and gives the FIA insights into how to break Mclaren's dominance, should they have the desire to do so...

The FIA has a long history of targeted regulations changes aimed at leveling the playing field. One day it will be Mclaren's turn again, just as the likes of Mclaren, Red Bull, Ferrari, and Mercedes were hobbled in the past.

Also, as bluechris said, FIA can say one thing now, and something completely different weeks later. They did it with the flex wings (cleared it, then changed the test). They did it with Mclaren's mini-DRS (cleared it, then banned it). It certainly won't be the last time that they flip flop on an unsuspecting team. The most important outcome for rivals was to put it on the FIA's radar. I feel it won't be the last time that we hear about it. The genie is out and you can't expect it to just go back in the bottle.

These are very different things. You can see the wings and make a spirited argument. You have no idea what to complain about with the ducts. The FIA may or may not ban them next year but I doubt that decision was ever going to have any relationship to what we were doing, unless it really was illegal. They'll make that decision based on whether it improves the show or not, and not anything to do with RBs noise.

It doesn't matter if it's an issue of legality or not as that's not always why regulations are "adjusted". I don't feel that Mclaren is doing anything illegal (but I have no credibility). The FIA also don't feel that there is anything illegal but that has nothing to do with the potential consequences of making the FIA "wiser" about how it all really works.

Red Bull have handed over a treasure map with an "x" that marks the spot. Those thermal imaging photos that Red Bull turned in will have been talked about at other teams. You can already see the effect that it's had on the discussion in this forum and how it's helping to unravel what makes the MCL-39 different.

I suspect Mclaren would be happier if the FIA and rivals were still clueless but the thermal imaging photos tell quite the story. The FIA may seek to "improve the show" at a later time, but they have to know "how" in order to do so. Red Bull's efforts were not wasted imo. All of the non-Mclaren teams have benefitted from this fishing expedition in one way or another. Now they know the areas to focus on. It's also possible that consequences of the FIA's new understanding may be seen at a later point in time.

I get that some are caught up in the "aha!, the FIA sticks it to Horner!", but I feel that is a very short-sighted viewpoint. This inquisition has very complex consequences.

I think you're blowing this out of proportion a bit. Let's wait and see how things develop. I really doubt anything will happen this year — mainly because there's no clear basis for a complaint, unlike past cases where at least there was something debatable. As Stella said, this falls into the category of the “dark arts” — you can’t easily see it or define it.

If something changes for next year, as I’ve said before, I suspect it would be more about balancing the spectacle than enforcing any real breach. But if it does get banned mid-season, feel free to quote this and hit me with a big “I told you so.”

As for whether this helped other teams: maybe the thermal imaging helped shine a light on it, but I doubt Red Bull are the only team to have looked into it — just the only one making noise publicly. There is a strong reason to suspect that someone else (Maybe Mercedes given their positioning) had already figured it out and started panicking about falling behind as I doubt think they'd be telling the world how to do this for free and helping their other competitors get a leg up and possibly get ahead of Red Bull.

This is F1 — everyone studies everyone else’s cars. That’s nothing new. Teams will use any tech they can to analyse competitors.

Point stand that reporting it to the FIA didn't enable anyone or anything. It wasn’t some noble crusade for fairness and transparency — it was exactly the kind of desperate move it looked like.

[FittingMechanics]

I am really struggling to see why would FIA ban something that is apparently legal, just to tighten the gaps one year before a major rule change? After all, FIA did not clamp down in 2023 and Red Bull had their almost perfect season.

I can understand clampdowns on stuff like flexible aero, as by the rules they shouldn't be flexible. But if this is just some clever way of making a brake duct, why would it be banned? It's like if someone figured out a more stable suspension that helps your aero platform, should that be banned?

Sure, it can and it might happen, who knows who has what kind of influence, but it's getting just silly. Teams develop great solutions and if they are legal, they shouldn't be banned.

[Emag]

I fully acknowledge McL current position, hard work, innovation, result therefore achieved. Make no implications of cheating either ... but be realistic in "adoption" of their history in that some considerable weight of their underperforming period since last championship was as direct result of cheating then, to be fined a massive amount and to compromise financially them for some considerable time.

Many seem to like pointing at opponent team with accusations of poor behaviour, when in reality this team has confirmed record of just such behaviour.

It doesn't do any favour to put them on such a high pedestal in leverage against others of accusations. Some sense of proportion would be welcome here.

They absolutely deserve their current performance , but with many contributing on here seeming to have personal inferiority views in needing to voice continuously a moral concern about other teams.

Its always been like this in teams contending the championship ..... the Hunt vs Lauda year being particularly so if anyone remembers that.

I don’t even know which cheating incident you’re referring to, but if you think Spy Gate caused McLaren’s slump over the past decade, you’re dead wrong. They fell to irrelevancy out of neglect, talent draught and lack of investments (plus a toxic working environment, but I won't go that deep). The fine did nothing to a team with a $400 million‑plus budget at the time. Illegal knowledge transfer happened, they were punished for it, end of story.

An incident settled two decades ago shouldn’t be dragged out to brand McLaren as rule‑breakers whenever it suits their competitors. Today’s McLaren which has completely different leadership and shareholders, is almost a different team altogether anyway.

[mwillems]

I think that it's not a nothingburger. These kinds of inquiries always have consequences. It's just a matter of when those consequences become realized. Thanks to rival teams, the FIA have now had a detailed look at the brake cooling system of the Mclaren. It means the FIA understand much more intimately what is going on and gives the FIA insights into how to break Mclaren's dominance, should they have the desire to do so...

The FIA has a long history of targeted regulations changes aimed at leveling the playing field. One day it will be Mclaren's turn again, just as the likes of Mclaren, Red Bull, Ferrari, and Mercedes were hobbled in the past.

I doubt they do anything about it this year though. In the end, unless it was proven illegal, it definitely isn't a decision it does RB any favors. They're no closer to figuring out how exactly it works (as far as we know), and they couldn't take it away from their competitors either. I guess the only hope now, is for the Spain TD to actually make a dent to McLaren's performance. Even then, I really doubt "McLaren will be nowhere" after Spain as some RedBull people believe.

I had my share of doubt on McLaren's seemingly "nonchalant" attitude on the whole thing, but after seeing the pace advantage they have on favorable conditions, then I think it was pretty clear for all to see that the flexing front wing is far from being the silver bullet in that car.

At the end of the day, F1 is a really fast-paced sport. I get your point about FIA possessing the trigger to kill McLaren's dominance if they wish to do so, but if McLaren are smart and resourceful about it (and these last 3 years have proven they are), they would be working on the next clever/big thing to build a cushion if and when that happens. You're dead meat if you think you're comfortable and sit on your a** in F1 anyway.

After reading the article, a rare Toto Wolf W popped up :

But team boss Toto Wolff was emphatic on Sunday night that McLaren's advantage was down to it simply doing a better job than anybody else - rather than operating outside of the regulations.

Both Mercedes and Red Bull have previously enjoyed periods of clear dominance, yet no one immediately accused them of breaking the rules. Now that McLaren has found themselves in a similar position, they’re being treated as guilty before any evidence has been presented. It’s commendable that Mercedes can acknowledge that at times their rivals may have simply been a bit more innovative. There’s no need to jump to the conclusion that McLaren is cheating, something Red Bull has been loudly suggesting since last year. This all stems from a rear wing innovation that fell into a regulatory gray area and was removed after just two races, during which it only offered minimal advantage. For a team that often claims to blame the game, not the player, you’d expect Red Bull to show a bit more integrity.

If you trace back McLaren's trajectory since 2018, I don't know why people are surprised they are in this position right now. The amount of investment that has gone into that team is crazy. The Bahraini spared no expense. They're operating with the latest & greatest when it comes to facilities and they've poached some of the most talented engineers in the grid. It would be a colossal failure if they weren't at the very least a serious title contender by now.

McLaren had a long 10 years of being lost, directionless, stuck in old ways, but worst of all, devoid of investment and money. When Zak Brown took the helm (and Bahraini bought the team), all of that changed. It just took some time for that change to materialize on track.

I fully acknowledge McL current position, hard work, innovation, result therefore achieved. Make no implications of cheating either ... but be realistic in "adoption" of their history in that some considerable weight of their underperforming period since last championship was as direct result of cheating then, to be fined a massive amount and to compromise financially them for some considerable time.

Many seem to like pointing at opponent team with accusations of poor behaviour, when in reality this team has confirmed record of just such behaviour.

It doesn't do any favour to put them on such a high pedestal in leverage against others of accusations. Some sense of proportion would be welcome here.

They absolutely deserve their current performance , but with many contributing on here seeming to have personal inferiority views in needing to voice continuously a moral concern about other teams.

Its always been like this in teams contending the championship ..... the Hunt vs Lauda year being particularly so if anyone remembers that.

I’m not putting anyone on a pedestal, nor do I think McLaren are angels — and I certainly don’t intend to be rude about Red Bull. But let’s be honest: Red Bull look like a team under pressure right now, and it seems like they’re willing to throw anything at the wall to catch up with McLaren — motivations that probably go beyond just on-track performance.

Bringing up historical scandals doesn’t really add much to this specific discussion. Today’s McLaren is not the same as the one from 15 years ago. Teams evolve — personnel, ownership, leadership, philosophy. If you want to tie this back to the past, you'd be better off calling it the spiritual successor to the Ron Dennis era rather than equating it directly with the team penalised back then.

I’m totally fine with acknowledging that all teams — McLaren included — will play games to gain an edge or throw rivals off balance. But the kind of behaviour Red Bull have shown lately is on another level. From public insinuations to lobbying via media, it’s a pattern that deserves scrutiny, and it’s fair to call it out.

[Farnborough]

I fully acknowledge McL current position, hard work, innovation, result therefore achieved. Make no implications of cheating either ... but be realistic in "adoption" of their history in that some considerable weight of their underperforming period since last championship was as direct result of cheating then, to be fined a massive amount and to compromise financially them for some considerable time.

Many seem to like pointing at opponent team with accusations of poor behaviour, when in reality this team has confirmed record of just such behaviour.

It doesn't do any favour to put them on such a high pedestal in leverage against others of accusations. Some sense of proportion would be welcome here.

They absolutely deserve their current performance , but with many contributing on here seeming to have personal inferiority views in needing to voice continuously a moral concern about other teams.

Its always been like this in teams contending the championship ..... the Hunt vs Lauda year being particularly so if anyone remembers that.

I don’t even know which cheating incident you’re referring to, but if you think Spy Gate caused McLaren’s slump over the past decade, you’re dead wrong. They fell to irrelevancy out of neglect, talent draught and lack of investments (plus a toxic working environment, but I won't go that deep). The fine did nothing to a team with a $400 million‑plus budget at the time. Illegal knowledge transfer happened, they were punished for it, end of story.

An incident settled two decades ago shouldn’t be dragged out to brand McLaren as rule‑breakers whenever it suits their competitors. Today’s McLaren which has completely different leadership and shareholders, is almost a different team altogether anyway.

You're just glossing over part of their history in reality. Conveniently.

Now I'm sure nobody would be willing to deny their substantial history of championship over the years ? On a time and "historic" basis, which is of the same judgment.

The continued and tiresome "defence" by defaming other teams (by contributions to this thread) just smacks of juvenile insecurity. Maybe having the confidence to celebrate success without caveat would be a more edifying stance, one in accordance with Stella's outlook.

I felt it was a very good weekend for this team in Miami, one that helps underpin an undisputed championship win if it continues. All the better for having a challenge of such measure to overcome.

[CjC]

If the FIA ban McLarens brake ducts then what the hell are we watching?
Why didn’t they ban Mercedes’ PU from 2014 to 2020 if they wanted the level the playing field for goodness sake.
What if *insert any engine manufacture you like* have a 50hp advantage with the new 2026 PUs will that be banned?

The teams are so restricted in these current regulations any major innovation should be applauded regardless of the team in innovated it.
I remember Adrian Newey being slightly frustrated in an interview about restricting the upcoming 2022 regulations we’re going to be. After enjoying a rich vein of form in 2022 and 2023 the others took it on the chin and McLaren in particular found new innovations and should be able to enjoy their rich vein of form now.

[Farnborough]

I doubt they do anything about it this year though. In the end, unless it was proven illegal, it definitely isn't a decision it does RB any favors. They're no closer to figuring out how exactly it works (as far as we know), and they couldn't take it away from their competitors either. I guess the only hope now, is for the Spain TD to actually make a dent to McLaren's performance. Even then, I really doubt "McLaren will be nowhere" after Spain as some RedBull people believe.

I had my share of doubt on McLaren's seemingly "nonchalant" attitude on the whole thing, but after seeing the pace advantage they have on favorable conditions, then I think it was pretty clear for all to see that the flexing front wing is far from being the silver bullet in that car.

At the end of the day, F1 is a really fast-paced sport. I get your point about FIA possessing the trigger to kill McLaren's dominance if they wish to do so, but if McLaren are smart and resourceful about it (and these last 3 years have proven they are), they would be working on the next clever/big thing to build a cushion if and when that happens. You're dead meat if you think you're comfortable and sit on your a** in F1 anyway.

After reading the article, a rare Toto Wolf W popped up :



Both Mercedes and Red Bull have previously enjoyed periods of clear dominance, yet no one immediately accused them of breaking the rules. Now that McLaren has found themselves in a similar position, they’re being treated as guilty before any evidence has been presented. It’s commendable that Mercedes can acknowledge that at times their rivals may have simply been a bit more innovative. There’s no need to jump to the conclusion that McLaren is cheating, something Red Bull has been loudly suggesting since last year. This all stems from a rear wing innovation that fell into a regulatory gray area and was removed after just two races, during which it only offered minimal advantage. For a team that often claims to blame the game, not the player, you’d expect Red Bull to show a bit more integrity.

If you trace back McLaren's trajectory since 2018, I don't know why people are surprised they are in this position right now. The amount of investment that has gone into that team is crazy. The Bahraini spared no expense. They're operating with the latest & greatest when it comes to facilities and they've poached some of the most talented engineers in the grid. It would be a colossal failure if they weren't at the very least a serious title contender by now.

McLaren had a long 10 years of being lost, directionless, stuck in old ways, but worst of all, devoid of investment and money. When Zak Brown took the helm (and Bahraini bought the team), all of that changed. It just took some time for that change to materialize on track.

I fully acknowledge McL current position, hard work, innovation, result therefore achieved. Make no implications of cheating either ... but be realistic in "adoption" of their history in that some considerable weight of their underperforming period since last championship was as direct result of cheating then, to be fined a massive amount and to compromise financially them for some considerable time.

Many seem to like pointing at opponent team with accusations of poor behaviour, when in reality this team has confirmed record of just such behaviour.

It doesn't do any favour to put them on such a high pedestal in leverage against others of accusations. Some sense of proportion would be welcome here.

They absolutely deserve their current performance , but with many contributing on here seeming to have personal inferiority views in needing to voice continuously a moral concern about other teams.

Its always been like this in teams contending the championship ..... the Hunt vs Lauda year being particularly so if anyone remembers that.

I’m not putting anyone on a pedestal, nor do I think McLaren are angels — and I certainly don’t intend to be rude about Red Bull. But let’s be honest: Red Bull look like a team under pressure right now, and it seems like they’re willing to throw anything at the wall to catch up with McLaren — motivations that probably go beyond just on-track performance.

Bringing up historical scandals doesn’t really add much to this specific discussion. Today’s McLaren is not the same as the one from 15 years ago. Teams evolve — personnel, ownership, leadership, philosophy. If you want to tie this back to the past, you'd be better off calling it the spiritual successor to the Ron Dennis era rather than equating it directly with the team penalised back then.

I’m totally fine with acknowledging that all teams — McLaren included — will play games to gain an edge or throw rivals off balance. But the kind of behaviour Red Bull have shown lately is on another level. From public insinuations to lobbying via media, it’s a pattern that deserves scrutiny, and it’s fair to call it out.

My response was to Emag, not criticism of your contribution. The saying "those from glass houses shouldn't throw stones" springs to mind.

Literally, every one of the teams has history of protest and pointing out misdemeanours, yet each time there's such tiresome moral judgment that clouds a good performance in discussion of technical (it is a technical forum ) achievement.

Currently this team is producing a fine performance, surely mature appreciation of that should hold sway.

[Balalu]

I fully acknowledge McL current position, hard work, innovation, result therefore achieved. Make no implications of cheating either ... but be realistic in "adoption" of their history in that some considerable weight of their underperforming period since last championship was as direct result of cheating then, to be fined a massive amount and to compromise financially them for some considerable time.

Many seem to like pointing at opponent team with accusations of poor behaviour, when in reality this team has confirmed record of just such behaviour.

It doesn't do any favour to put them on such a high pedestal in leverage against others of accusations. Some sense of proportion would be welcome here.

They absolutely deserve their current performance , but with many contributing on here seeming to have personal inferiority views in needing to voice continuously a moral concern about other teams.

Its always been like this in teams contending the championship ..... the Hunt vs Lauda year being particularly so if anyone remembers that.

I don’t even know which cheating incident you’re referring to, but if you think Spy Gate caused McLaren’s slump over the past decade, you’re dead wrong. They fell to irrelevancy out of neglect, talent draught and lack of investments (plus a toxic working environment, but I won't go that deep). The fine did nothing to a team with a $400 million‑plus budget at the time. Illegal knowledge transfer happened, they were punished for it, end of story.

An incident settled two decades ago shouldn’t be dragged out to brand McLaren as rule‑breakers whenever it suits their competitors. Today’s McLaren which has completely different leadership and shareholders, is almost a different team altogether anyway.

You're just glossing over part of their history in reality. Conveniently.

Now I'm sure nobody would be willing to deny their substantial history of championship over the years ? On a time and "historic" basis, which is of the same judgment.

The continued and tiresome "defence" by defaming other teams (by contributions to this thread) just smacks of juvenile insecurity. Maybe having the confidence to celebrate success without caveat would be a more edifying stance, one in accordance with Stella's outlook.

I felt it was a very good weekend for this team in Miami, one that helps underpin an undisputed championship win if it continues. All the better for having a challenge of such measure to overcome.

I hope you're not referring to the 2007 $100 mill record fine, which had it's fair share of weight coming from the Mosley vs Dennis beef of the era. The same era of which was later admitted that the FIA bent sideways to help Ferrari.

[BMMR61]

I agree. Red Bull have turned the dial of media accusations and FIA lobbying to a new level. Pretty dirty but we shouldn't get too fazed by it all. It is at it's core, business as usual in F1. Just the level and snarkiness.

There will be a complexity to the "cake tin" technology that will be, even for FIA technical inspectors difficult to understand and know what to look for and what they are even looking at. Until the technical innovation is precisely understood it can't be DEFINED. Definitions are where you can start making regulation changes.

I doubt that Horner is going to let up, it's his MO.

[mwillems]

I honestly don’t see what Emag said that was out of line. They pointed out how success is now being instantly equated with cheating, then clearly laid out the hard-earned and costly path McLaren has taken to reach their current level.

The idea that being ahead on track is automatically grounds for suspicion—and that this is being pushed through media narratives—is a new and disappointing development to me.