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[CjC]

Well, I think we need to change our perspective on the MCL40. We have just found out that the Mercedes isn’t the bench mark PU, it’s the second best so chassis wise McLaren have done alright so far considering.

I think that there is still plenty of potential. This second part of the upgrade somewhat backfired but I trust them to figure it out. Not sure if this is accurate but I always have a feeling that if Lando has issues in FPs that they don't get a good setup for the race. Am I wrong to think that? Does anyone remember races where Lando had issues in FPs and Oscar had a great race?

Monaco is a big outlier plus Montreal was a big mistake.

Indeed, like I said before, they seem excited with whats in the pipeline to come.

I have to say, I’m not looking forward to the coming races with the car in this spec. Stella has said that Merc and Ferrari are stronger in the medium and high speed corners and with Spain, Austria and Silverstone up next my hopes aren’t that high…

Regarding Lando’s bad FPs effecting set up- I have to say I haven’t noticed but now that you have mentioned it I’ll take note

[AR3-GP]

Well, I think we need to change our perspective on the MCL40. We have just found out that the Mercedes isn’t the bench mark PU, it’s the second best so chassis wise McLaren have done alright so far considering.

After Monaco, can we say Mclaren is 2nd best chassis?

PU does not equal ICE. ADUO is granted on ICE performance. By all measurements, Mercedes has the highest performing overall PU (ICE + hybrid) and Mclaren are benefitting from that.

[CjC]

Like I expected, mixed emotions from the ADUO result.

Mclaren don’t have the second best chassis (which I never suggested) but considering it has the best hybrid and second best frozen water they haven’t done a good enough job sitting third in the WCC.

Also I’m certainly not basing any future predictions on the Monaco GP result. Mclaren lacked a lot of pace this weekend but let’s not forget from Japan onwards Mclaren have been the only team to threaten and beat Mercedes in any competitive session, they are the only team this season who have looked like winning a feature race and it was on 2 separate occasions.

[AR3-GP]

Like I expected, mixed emotions from the ADUO result.

Mclaren don’t have the second best chassis (which I never suggested) but considering it has the best hybrid and second best frozen water they haven’t done a good enough job sitting third in the WCC.

Also I’m certainly not basing any future predictions on the Monaco GP result. Mclaren lacked a lot of pace this weekend but let’s not forget from Japan onwards Mclaren have been the only team to threaten and beat Mercedes in any competitive session, they are the only team this season who have looked like winning a feature race and it was on 2 separate occasions.

I read your other post too quickly.

Mercedes was much faster than Mclaren in Japan. Piastri benefitted from the bad starts of the Mercedes and from being chased by the slower Mercedes driver and the yo-yo rules. Antonelli was significantly quicker than Russell that weekend. 4 tenths in qualifying but he had the worst start of all time and got stuck in a yo-yo train. If he got away from pole, we wouldn't have seen which way he went.

Mclaren actually haven't been close to Mercedes. Maybe in Miami when Mclaren brought a huge upgrade pack and Mercedes was still on the launch spec car? In Canada, Merc was pulling away from Norris at half a second a lap in the sprint before they started battling. In Monaco Mclaren was nowhere near Mercedes. I'm not convinced it's all rosey here. Lando Norris said as much after qualifying, that this is a reality check. Some things flattered Mclaren in the earlier races. They were never truly a Mercedes rival. If ever they were, it was really certain things aligning to make it look better than it was.

Red Bull is actually the only team with multiple front row starts this year, while riding an overweight car, and they do not have the best overall PU, despite the nonsense ADUO outcome. Mercedes does. Granted some of this is "Max effect", but the car is close enough for him to compete, unlike before Miami, so they have improved something.

[CjC]

Like I expected, mixed emotions from the ADUO result.

Mclaren don’t have the second best chassis (which I never suggested) but considering it has the best hybrid and second best frozen water they haven’t done a good enough job sitting third in the WCC.

Also I’m certainly not basing any future predictions on the Monaco GP result. Mclaren lacked a lot of pace this weekend but let’s not forget from Japan onwards Mclaren have been the only team to threaten and beat Mercedes in any competitive session, they are the only team this season who have looked like winning a feature race and it was on 2 separate occasions.

I read your other post too quickly.

I thought you did
I back tracked and gave you the benefit of the doubt whilst composing my reply as I get the impression you feel a little bit aggrieved with the ADUO outcome. You made some great points in the Red Bull thread regarding the future PU development which I like the sound of as a rival

[AR3-GP]

Like I expected, mixed emotions from the ADUO result.

Mclaren don’t have the second best chassis (which I never suggested) but considering it has the best hybrid and second best frozen water they haven’t done a good enough job sitting third in the WCC.

Also I’m certainly not basing any future predictions on the Monaco GP result. Mclaren lacked a lot of pace this weekend but let’s not forget from Japan onwards Mclaren have been the only team to threaten and beat Mercedes in any competitive session, they are the only team this season who have looked like winning a feature race and it was on 2 separate occasions.

I read your other post too quickly.

I thought you did
I back tracked and gave you the benefit of the doubt whilst composing my reply as I get the impression you feel a little bit aggrieved with the ADUO outcome. You made some great points in the Red Bull thread regarding the future PU development which I like the sound of as a rival

My main point is still that I don't agree with this post:

Well, I think we need to change our perspective on the MCL40. We have just found out that the Mercedes isn’t the bench mark PU, it’s the second best so chassis wise McLaren have done alright so far considering.

I'm not sure there are positives to take from the ADUO announcement about Mclaren's chassis. I think you mistakenly assumed it meant that RBPT actually has a better PU. They don't. That's just the flaw in the system that only looks at half of the PU to determine it's effectiveness. In practice Mercedes is the leader because the hybrid side brings more than anyone else. That much is obvious from watching the races and telemetry where Mercedes powered cars across the board do not get overtaken by other PUs.

Of course it is positive that you can count on additional upgrades of the Mercedes PU to give advantage over Red Bull and Ferrari, but Mclaren still has to beat Mercedes if they want to win again and the chassis can't be hidden there. The sprints and Merc's bad starts flattered Mclaren but digging into the data, Merc's chassis advantage over Mclaren is significant.

It's what Lando Norris has been trying to say for a while, and said again this weekend.

[CjC]

Like I expected, mixed emotions from the ADUO result.

Mclaren don’t have the second best chassis (which I never suggested) but considering it has the best hybrid and second best frozen water they haven’t done a good enough job sitting third in the WCC.

Also I’m certainly not basing any future predictions on the Monaco GP result. Mclaren lacked a lot of pace this weekend but let’s not forget from Japan onwards Mclaren have been the only team to threaten and beat Mercedes in any competitive session, they are the only team this season who have looked like winning a feature race and it was on 2 separate occasions.

I read your other post too quickly.

Mercedes was much faster than Mclaren in Japan. Piastri benefitted from the bad starts of the Mercedes and from being chased by the slower Mercedes driver and the yo-yo rules. Antonelli was significantly quicker than Russell that weekend. 4 tenths in qualifying but he had the worst start of all time and got stuck in a yo-yo train. If he got away from pole, we wouldn't have seen which way he went.

Mclaren actually haven't been close to Mercedes. Maybe in Miami when Mclaren brought a huge upgrade pack and Mercedes was still on the launch spec car? In Canada, Merc was pulling away from Norris at half a second a lap in the sprint before they started battling. In Monaco Mclaren was nowhere near Mercedes. I'm not convinced it's all rosey here. Lando Norris said as much after qualifying, that this is a reality check. Some things flattered Mclaren in the earlier races. They were never truly a Mercedes rival. If ever they were, it was really certain things aligning to make it look better than it was.

Red Bull is actually the only team with multiple front row starts this year, while riding an overweight car, and they do not have the best overall PU, despite the nonsense ADUO outcome. Mercedes does. Granted some of this is "Max effect", but the car is close enough for him to compete, unlike before Miami, so they have improved something.

There is another factor we have to consider as well. Kimi Antonelli. It’s mainly him beating everyone. Yes, George did a good job in Canada but if it wasn’t for Kimi, Oscar wins in Japan. Lando wins back to back in Miami and Max has a few pole positions to his name as well this season.

[AR3-GP]

There is another factor we have to consider as well. Kimi Antonelli. It’s mainly him beating everyone. Yes, George did a good job in Canada but if it wasn’t for Kimi, Oscar wins in Japan. Lando wins back to back in Miami and Max has a few pole positions to his name as well this season.

Right but it doesn't matter how many of him there are. He's in that car and he has the same PU that Mclaren has. Any upgrade to the PU goes to both teams. If Mclaren want to win a race, they will have to come up with a significant chassis upgrade using the smallest windtunnel allocation and then hope that Mercedes stands still. The Miami upgrade only brought them to the level of Merc's launch car. Then Mercedes made a huge step with the Canada car so it's back to where it was before. Mclaren have to do a lot more than play leapfrog. the development has to be ahead of where Mercedes is going to land next.

[CjC]

I read your other post too quickly.

I thought you did
I back tracked and gave you the benefit of the doubt whilst composing my reply as I get the impression you feel a little bit aggrieved with the ADUO outcome. You made some great points in the Red Bull thread regarding the future PU development which I like the sound of as a rival

My main point is still that I don't agree with this post:

Well, I think we need to change our perspective on the MCL40. We have just found out that the Mercedes isn’t the bench mark PU, it’s the second best so chassis wise McLaren have done alright so far considering.

I'm not sure there are positives to take from the ADUO announcement about Mclaren's chassis. I think you mistakenly assumed it meant that RBPT actually has a better PU. They don't. That's just the flaw in the system that only looks at half of the PU to determine it's effectiveness. In practice Mercedes is the leader because the hybrid side brings more than anyone else. That much is obvious from watching the races and telemetry where Mercedes powered cars across the board do not get overtaken by other PUs.

Of course it is positive that you can count on additional upgrades of the Mercedes PU to give advantage over Red Bull and Ferrari, but Mclaren still has to beat Mercedes if they want to win again and the chassis can't be hidden there. The sprints and Merc's bad starts flattered Mclaren but digging into the data, Merc's chassis advantage over Mclaren is significant.

It's what Lando Norris has been trying to say for a while, and said again this weekend.

You are assuming that I think the Mclaren chassis is as good as Mercs or something which I havent suggested. I haven’t even suggested it’s the second best- I haven’t even ranked it anywhere at all

[quote=CjC post_id=<a href="tel:1345256">1345256</a> time=<a href="tel:1780859779">1780859779</a> user_id=15069]

There is another factor we have to consider as well. Kimi Antonelli. It’s mainly him beating everyone. Yes, George did a good job in Canada but if it wasn’t for Kimi, Oscar wins in Japan. Lando wins back to back in Miami and Max has a few pole positions to his name as well this season.

Right but it doesn't matter how many of him there are. He's in that car and he has the same PU that Mclaren has. If Mclaren want to win a race, they will have to come up with a significant chassis upgrade. Something I'm not sure is possible this year given the current size of the gap, the small windtunnel allocation, and the first misstep with the front wing.
[/quote]

You’re preaching to the choir now.