Drivers using their car as a weapon

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Rikhart
Rikhart
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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In my opinion a 1 year ban to let him cool off is is applicable here. Suddenly forgetting you are in a race, to chase someone out of the track, and hit him? No.

Richard
Richard
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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The point is that all drivers use their cars as weapons.

If you fire a missile (aka car) down a predetermined path that is bound to cross someone elses path then that is pemeditated intent to knock some else out of the race. There are lots of examples and the name of the driver is irerelevant. So if you don't like the Senna examples then stick with Schumacher, Prost, Coulthard etc.

Put it another way, if I choose to punch in front of me and you happened to be standing there, it hardly reasonable to blame you for the punch because you failed to get out of the way?

In some respects, being 'daring' or 'bold' in F1 are sometimes euphamisms for bullying a driver out of your way. It is a form of pugilism with cars as weapons instead of fists. Just like boxong, to chase your opponant out of the ring to give them a slap is illegal, but it is often excusable to land the odd punch on track (aka you failed to avoid me).

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Powershift
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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Mandrake wrote:By today's standards, Senna would have been penalised by the stewards in both cases. 89 was a massive divebomb from far too far back and 90, well, he stuck his nose into a place it didn't belong. Bearing in mind it was the championship deciding move for him and he had nothing to lose, it was fairly obvious a maneuver on purpose.

Rage or overagression does not have a place in motorsports. Drivers that cannot control themselves and drive on purpose into other cars should face serious penalties. I was once hit from behind while karting after I've lapped someone. He got mad and never braked while ramming my back. That was both unexpected and very painful...

@ those defending Senna: He was wrong there. Making a stand and sticking to it is even worse as it was a planned action, not a spontaneous one. As fast a driver he was, he was as dirty as every other champion out there!
Complete and utter nonsense, every last word of it
Winning is the most important. Everything is consequence of that. Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.-Ayrton Senna

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FoxHound
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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@mandrake

Very provocative sentiments there if you don't mind me saying?
What are your thoughts regards Prost in these instances?
JET set

mnmracer
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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In 1989 it was clearly Prost's fault: the crash happened before the normal turn-in point. At the very least, he should have checked his mirrors before taking that line.
In 1990, it's harder to say, but taking everything into consideration, including what he told the world before the race and Senna's habit of putting his car somewhere and leaving the choice to crash or not to the other driver, it was at the very least avoidable. Prost was very clearly ahead into that corner.

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Powershift
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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mnmracer wrote:In 1989 it was clearly Prost's fault: the crash happened before the normal turn-in point. At the very least, he should have checked his mirrors before taking that line.
In 1990, it's harder to say, but taking everything into consideration, including what he told the world before the race and Senna's habit of putting his car somewhere and leaving the choice to crash or not to the other driver, it was at the very least avoidable. Prost was very clearly ahead into that corner.
The FACT is that Senna, because he was in Pole Position, was ahead of Prost on the grid, Prost clearly got a better start because he was on the clean side, none of this is in any dispute. Being that Prost was passing Senna on the start he had the responsibility to make sure he passed cleanly and left proper racing room, Senna was on the inside, Prost CAN NOT take the inside line until he is 100% percent ahead of Senna, when they collided Prost's right rear was behind Senna's left front... Clearly Prost's fault in my view, Had Prost given the car that was next to him(although not fully alongside) proper racing room they could have both made the corner(we have seen many people go side by side into that turn, even at full racing speed, let along at start grid speed).

If Prost was clearly ahead as you claim Senna would have rear ended him, He did not, Prost's Right rear struck Senna's Left front, Senna was on the extreme right of the track, it was Prost that put his car in a place that forced contact, he had plenty of room to move to the left which is actually the preferred line into Suzuka turn 2. Just because you are partially "ahead" does not mean you have the full right to the entirety of the track's width. As Alonso has said, "You must leave-a the Gap"

Senna never claimed that he would crash into Prost, he only claimed he would not concede the corner without a fight.

Senna has been called all types of terrible things when in actuality Prost was absolutely a horrible sportsman in every opportunity.

Even the Portugal incident where everyone claims that Senna tried to put Prost into the wall only came about after Prost tried to force Senna off the track onto the grass on one of the previous aborted starts.

Using your racecar as a weapon is reprehensible and worthy of severe punishment, but in my recollection Senna did nothing of the sort, his fists are another story. A "block pass", placing your car as to impede a competitors entry into a corner, is a time tested method that has been used since the inception of auto racing. Although if not executed properly it can be dangerous, it is in no way a "dirty" tactic.
Winning is the most important. Everything is consequence of that. Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.-Ayrton Senna

Richard
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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Crikey - There are some sore wounds for things that happened over 20 years ago.

The names are irrelevant. The drivers who won a lot of races (no names) have moments when they use their car as a missile from behind heading to a certain collision unless the car in front got out of the way. It's deliberate intent to cause a collision. I'm not criticising or accusing people of terrible things, just saying that even the top driver are cynical bullies. People like Maldonardo or Perez have exactly the same intent but its poorly executed.

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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Just as a reminder, Senna had nowhere to go on his right. You can see his front right on the kerb already in this picture. So it's not as if he turned his wheels into Prost in the manner Schumacher did to Villeneuve in '97, or even the video in the original post of this topic. All that's really debatable about 1990 is whether or not he should have gotten on the brakes to fall in behind Prost. Of course, as I do not, nor have I ever raced for a professional living, I can't really know what Senna's mentality was fully. By that, I mean how would I react had I been in his situation. I like to think I would have just tried to overake via normal means, but coming off the 1989 debacle, I can't say how much that would have impacted me.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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GitanesBlondes wrote:Just as a reminder, Senna had nowhere to go on his right. You can see his front right on the kerb already in this picture. So it's not as if he turned his wheels into Prost in the manner Schumacher did to Villeneuve in '97, or even the video in the original post of this topic. All that's really debatable about 1990 is whether or not he should have gotten on the brakes to fall in behind Prost. Of course, as I do not, nor have I ever raced for a professional living, I can't really know what Senna's mentality was fully. By that, I mean how would I react had I been in his situation. I like to think I would have just tried to overake via normal means, but coming off the 1989 debacle, I can't say how much that would have impacted me.
As much I hate these stupid discussions, the critical point here is the fact that the McLaren data showed Senna never took his foot off the accelerator for the first turn...
Not the engineer at Force India

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Shrieker
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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He'll probably say the front left wheel was damaged and the car initially didn't turn when he pushed the throttle :-"
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
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FoxHound
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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Godwin's law should be invoked here as soon as is humanly possible.

Prost recognised Senna would never yield. Senna telegraphed him that the day before.
Senna recognised Prost would do everything possible to keep him behind. The championship depended on it.

In these situations we can chew the fat until the fat ladies sung her hymn while the cows amble home. It won't make a blind bit of difference because no one is changing their view.
Savour the rivalry by all means. But the bones being dug up here are devoid of any nutrition.
JET set

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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Tim.Wright wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:Just as a reminder, Senna had nowhere to go on his right. You can see his front right on the kerb already in this picture. So it's not as if he turned his wheels into Prost in the manner Schumacher did to Villeneuve in '97, or even the video in the original post of this topic. All that's really debatable about 1990 is whether or not he should have gotten on the brakes to fall in behind Prost. Of course, as I do not, nor have I ever raced for a professional living, I can't really know what Senna's mentality was fully. By that, I mean how would I react had I been in his situation. I like to think I would have just tried to overake via normal means, but coming off the 1989 debacle, I can't say how much that would have impacted me.
As much I hate these stupid discussions, the critical point here is the fact that the McLaren data showed Senna never took his foot off the accelerator for the first turn...
That's why I said the only real debtable part is whether or not Senna should have braked and tried to overtake later. But his mentality was such that was never going to happen. It is what it is, and almost a quarter of a century gone. If people want to bring that up, peoplr should bring up Mansell getting black flagged and then running Senna off the circuit. It was a different time.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Richard
Richard
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Re: Drivers using their car as a weapon

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FoxHound wrote:Godwin's law should be invoked here as soon as is humanly possible.
Done