Primordial Superbike Racing.

[strad]

I am just glad I survived my H2, it was great in a straight line, cornering and stopping not so much

I couldn't agree more. I know JAW has a love affair with them but I remember them as having poor brakes, that weren't up to the speed it was capable of. In fact it was the first bike, like the Hayabusa years later, that was deemed an attempt at revenge by the Japanese. I was in the bike building business back then and built a few and you could get yourself into real trouble behind those brakes and it flexed more than an early Sportster. That was my opinion then and it hasn't changed. It isn't like I rode everything on two wheels for like 40 years or anything.
Sorry JAW I know you love 'em but I think it's clouded your vision.

[J.A.W.]

I am just glad I survived my H2, it was great in a straight line, cornering and stopping not so much

I couldn't agree more. I know JAW has a love affair with them but I remember them as having poor brakes, that weren't up to the speed it was capable of. In fact it was the first bike, like the Hayabusa years later, that was deemed an attempt at revenge by the Japanese. I was in the bike building business back then and built a few and you could get yourself into real trouble behind those brakes and it flexed more than an early Sportster. That was my opinion then and it hasn't changed. It isn't like I rode everything on two wheels for like 40 years or anything.
Sorry JAW I know you love 'em but I think it's clouded your vision.

If you'd actually read that linked test you'd see that in fact - it was the H-D Sportster which was an also-ran by `73..
.. even when hogged out to 1000cc, & fitted with updated - (& Japanese Showa sourced) - front forks..

& again as evidenced - from a contemporary source..
On page 145 of Phil Schilling's 1974 book 'The Motorcycle World'.. there's another - better informed view - than yours..

"The Kawasaki 750, another 3 cylinder, 2-stroke machine, had performance so devastating that it could humble all
other motorcycles. Neither comfortable, nor graceful in cornering, the 750 Kawasaki could still best other machines
point-to-point over winding roads, thanks to its tremendous accelerative & decelerative capabilities.
The 750 Kawasaki represented the end point of hot-rod motorcycles."

The comment about "cornering" meant that while steering/handling feel was not as reassuring - as say - the well-sorted
Nortons & Triumphs of the day - the Kawasaki still had sufficient ground clearance & roadholding for a skilled rider
to whip 'em, even so.. you - clearly - have to ride it properly, with real focus & certainly not with ah, "clouded...vision"..

[Gatecrasher]

Just catching back up with this thread. Thanks for some great links and loved the old Mamola video. There are a couple of 250 2-strokes here in the Pacific Northwest that make it out to the track on a regular basis, with a good rider they really humble the litre bikes. Counting down the days to the season start.

[bdr529]

The comment about "cornering" meant that while steering/handling feel was not as reassuring - as say - the well-sorted
Nortons & Triumphs of the day - the Kawasaki still had sufficient ground clearance & roadholding for a skilled rider
to whip 'em, even so.. you - clearly - have to ride it properly, with real focus & certainly not with ah, "clouded...vision"..

The bike had far to much power for the frame to handle, ideally not the best attribute you want in a motorcycle.

1971/72 H2 750 Mach IV
"Two steering dampers were fitted, one friction and one hydraulic, but the handling was still a bit suspect to say the least!"
1974 H2-B
Major changes were made to the.... frame and rear shocks among other updates
The rear swing arm was lengthened to improve handling and in an effort to reduce the wheelie factor!
http://www.classic-japanese-bikes.com/K ... rokes.html

The H2 had “only one purpose in life,” according to Kawasaki’s 1972 sales brochure — “To give you the most exciting and exhilarating performance.” It also mentioned how the H2 “demands the razor sharp reactions of an experienced rider,” and is “a machine you must take seriously.”
Seriously, indeed. Consider: Seventy-four explosive horsepower stuffed into a powerband only 2,800rpm wide; a frame better suited to a moped;
July/August 2006
http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/class ... x?PageId=1

Dave Gurry admits the steering of his first-year 1972 H2 isn’t all it could be, in spite of the Kawi having two steering dampers, one friction-type and one hydraulic. “If I turn the handlebars at about 40mph,” he says, “I can see the frame bending at the front of the gas tank. The handling is wickedly poor. In a straight line it’s okay, but in corners it flexes a lot.”
June/2011
http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/from- ... ch-iv.aspx

Having known people that have both owned and race the H2 triple back in the day, all seem to have the same sentiment when describing that bike, insanely fast with horrible handling,

Granted I would still love to get a hold of one of those old rockets,

[J.A.W.]

To be fair Strad, none of the early superbikes from Nippon were known as fine steering/handling bikes,
but if fitted with decent tyres & given a basic suspension upgrade, the roadholding is at an acceptable level,
- since for experienced riders, a little wriggling aint no big deal, as long as you stay rubber-side down.

Much of the current reportage about the H2 is just 2nd hand sensational/horror/'widow-maker'legend-type stuff.

I came to H1/H2s from well behaved chassis, natural steering Brit-bikes, & so had to learn to really grab 'em by the scruff,
& keep 'em pointing in the direction you wanna go.

Again, if you read the Cycle Superbike Showdown: http://www.kawtriple.com/mraxl/articles ... bikes1.htm
you'll see that H2 powerband shown on a dyno chart - & it is in fact, in a fairly tame tune, being quite the torquer,
but - it was the ready ability to get real hornery race power - by application of comparatively inexpensive basic 2-stroke tune-up modifications to a big inch mill ( by 2-stroke standards) - that made it a natural race-winning bike.

4-strokes needed expensive high rpm hot cam/valve/ hi-comp big-bore piston set-ups, as well as port-work, pipes & big carbs - to compete.

[strad]

Hey if you wanna think they were Gods gift to motorcycling you are indeed entitled to that view.
How ever you'll have to grant others that same boon.
I rode em, I worked on them, I really really didn't like or trust them.
Am I like some hot shoe?
Not even in my prime, but I darn sure was no slug.
Apparently you are far superior with the ability to wring every ounce out of the beast while maintaining absolute control and confidence.

[J.A.W.]

Strad, forget the "love...god's gift" personal stuff , let us keep this technical

& for all the myths about "horrible handling" of early Nippon superbikes,.
..clearly the H2 wasn't actually too badly handicapped by it - or it wouldn't have been able to snare lap records..
.. against the other top performers of the day, even in bone-stock production racing trim..

http://www.the6hour.com.au/content/hist ... y1973.html

The modified production "Superbike" race machines also somehow managed, even with much more power,
this fact being remarked upon in the course of the `74 Chesterfield Superbike Series when H2-mounted
winner Garry Thomas "sensationally" lapped the Amaroo circuit.. as reported in 'Two Wheels' magazine..

"...at 58.0 - just 0.7 seconds outside the outright lap record held by Murray Sayle on the ( pukka factory G.P. chassis) H2R 750."

Those supposedly crappy H2 frames were even up to handling the forces imposed by the new-fangled wide & sticky 'slicks'..
which Warren Willing brought back with him - from his USA racing trip.

He also brought back "hot shoe" Hurley Wilvert - to try racing down under, but he wasn't used to racing in the rain..

[Gatecrasher]

Hey if you wanna think they were Gods gift to motorcycling you are indeed entitled to that view.

Every few years there is always a new bike that ups the standard. The old H2 and the current 2015 version were Kawasaki's way of trying to be different. Different does not always mean better, but you have to thank the engineers for stretching the boundaries and pushing the other manufacturers forward.

Would I ever buy another H2, new or old, no way unless it was just for a shinny bike to sit in the corner and admire.

[J.A.W.]

Every few years there is always a new bike that ups the standard. The old H2 and the current 2015 version were Kawasaki's way of trying to be different. Different does not always mean better, but you have to thank the engineers for stretching the boundaries and pushing the other manufacturers forward.

Would I ever buy another H2, new or old, no way unless it was just for a shinny bike to sit in the corner and admire.

Funnily enough, Jay Leno took an original H2 triple for a blast when he picked up his new 'H2', since he'd never had a go on
one before.. & he had so much fun, he decided he needed an old one for his garage too..

Trouble is, with wealthy collectors now paying big prices, not enough old triples are being ridden hard like they were built to do,
& to "sit in the corner" is IMO, not only a waste, its bad for the bike, since 2-strokes really need to be run regularly, too..

Kawasaki got a bit uptight about the H2, especially when in that Cycle magazine test, it showed up their flagship Z1..
& that was after the Z1 was hogged out to 903cc, & the stock H2 had been de-tuned - to allow the fat-as 4-stroke to match it..

Too bad Kawasaki lacked the gumption to market a real modern H2, a mean, green DFI 2-stroke triple..

Anyhow..
Here's another Kevin Cameron article on the ol' Kaw triples.. http://www.kawtriple.com/mraxl/articles/smokin.jpg

[J.A.W.]

Would I ever buy another H2, new or old, no way unless it was just for a shinny bike to sit in the corner and admire.

Well, to be fair, Seb Vettel does ride his shiny H2B.. https://www.instagram.com/p/4vtZgMTPec/

I once parked my identical stock green machine up - out on the curbside - after polishing all that shiny chrome..
& had a passer-by point at it & tell his kid to..

"Check all the beautiful chrome on that Harley, son!"

[J.A.W.]

The H2 had “only one purpose in life,” according to Kawasaki’s 1972 sales brochure — “To give you the most exciting and exhilarating performance.” It also mentioned how the H2 “demands the razor sharp reactions of an experienced rider,” and is “a machine you must take seriously.”
Seriously, indeed. Consider: Seventy-four explosive horsepower stuffed into a powerband only 2,800rpm wide; a frame better suited to a moped;
Dave Gurry admits the steering of his first-year 1972 H2 isn’t all it could be, in spite of the Kawi having two steering dampers, one friction-type and one hydraulic. “If I turn the handlebars at about 40mph,” he says, “I can see the frame bending at the front of the gas tank. The handling is wickedly poor. In a straight line it’s okay, but in corners it flexes a lot.”

You simply cannot be serious about the ".frame better suited to a moped " bdr..., that would be one over-engineered pedalo..
As for Dave G's claim.. I'd like to see a vid showing him "...turn the handlebars at ~40mph..." I call pure BS on that one..
..either that or he needs to check it for a broken frame..

See this classy Nippon made vid for a more realistic steering head view.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Wvn---mmc

[Steven]

Please tell me this isn't evolving into a yes-no-yes thread...

[strad]

If you'd actually read that linked test you'd see that in fact.........

Your the one that wants to take it all too personal.
OF course a professional rider could FORCE it to do things but for the average street rider it was a death trap.
That's my last comment in this tread. You're way too emotionally involved to discuss it rationally.

[bdr529]

You simply cannot be serious about the ".frame better suited to a moped " bdr..., that would be one over-engineered pedalo..
As for Dave G's claim.. I'd like to see a vid showing him "...turn the handlebars at ~40mph..." I call pure BS on that one..
..either that or he needs to check it for a broken frame..

See this classy Nippon made vid for a more realistic steering head view.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Wvn---mac

You have a tendency to pick and chose which articles you want to believe, and they all seem to be the ones that favor your opinion.
If you don't like the analogy of the frame being better suited to a moped, and you feel Dave Gurry is full of BS,
then I suggest you write the good people at Classic Motorcycle with your complaint.

What I personally said about the bike having to much power for the frame to handle, is backed up by your link
The author Kevin Cameron called it a "negative quality".." high power is the sworn enemy of good handling"
http://www.kawtriple.com/mraxl/articles/smokin.jpg


by the way the video link you posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Wvn---mac Is unavailable

My opinion of that bike having poor handling came from people "that have both owned and race the H2 triple"
One of those persons was Kawasaki Factory racer Yvon Duhamel
Here's what he said in 1975 about his Kawasaki factory race bike
“The way the Kawasaki frame is made,” Duhamel said, “or the way the engine is placed or something, something is wrong there. It just wants to lose traction at the rear wheel. It moves six inches and that’s it, it wants to high-side you.”
http://www.cycleworld.com/2010/08/18/fo ... good-year/
It seems even though Kawasaki made great motors they were less competent at making a compliant chassis

[J.A.W.]

Please tell me this isn't evolving into a yes-no-yes thread...

Steven, the old "Proof of the pudding" saying applies.. as it always should - in a technical discussion,
& what does the proper evidence reveal in actuality, while emotive gainsaying aint really worth the column space.