More Bernie desperation

[wesley123]

Everything counts, I don´t watch F1 for any specific reason, but for many. It´s not the engine, it´s the whole package

Indeed, it's the wole package. A single track is hardly a piece of the puzzle. none of the F1 races have a singular importance as like the indy 500 or 24hrs ofLe Mans has.

Problem is the package is becoming weaker each season. On some season we loose some mythic track, then we loose competitiveness, then we loose the "top drivers" component because money counts more than talent, then we loose engine development and they freeze the most important part on any car on the pinnacle of motorsports.... and so on

I'm sorry, but this desired competitiveness is a myth. most of F1's history has been with domination, one, or a small group of teams dominating the sport.

The competition has always been in the mid pack, and it still is.

Also, the field is full of top drivers, they are all the best in their field, much more so than years ago.

And the engine freeze has all been a thing of cost-cutting, a part of the current economic environment. You can't really blame F1 for the economic environment.

They´re managing to disillusion many viewers, I know many friends who watched F1 one decade ago, and today they don´t care about F1 at all. And I´m not sure if I´ll follow them if this continue the same, F1 is loosing its identity season by season

Fans come and go. Like said, you can't please everyone. F1 isn't losing it's identity, it never has.

It´s all a circle, ignore the fans and F1 will definately die, my only question is who will die first, F1 or Bernie

Except not really. Ignore the fans is exactly what you must do with such a large fanbase. Do you think all the millions of fans all want exactly the same thing? No.

All the fans, with NO exception, want to see a competition with some competitiveness. It was when F1 started to decrease competitiveness wise when audience numbers started to drop, and they´ve continued this way for a decade, so I guess we millions of fans all want more or less the same [/quote]

F1 has never been competitive. It's always been a domination of a single team, and it'll continue to be like that. If that is such an issue, then why did people watch F1 to begin with?

Listening to the fans is the worst thing you could possibly do.

Are you Wesley or Bernie

That´s what Bernie think, and you see what´s bringing that kind of politics, audience numbers decreasing season by season, sponsors NOT interested on F1 and mythical teams like McLaren or Williams with no big sponsors, no sposors so no money and teams suffering serious economical problems.....

Sponsors aren't interested because they can't afford it. You can't really show up, sack 30% of your employees while sponsoring a team for millions.

Continue ignoring fans and you´ll kill F1.

Listening to fans is how you kill F1. No one wants the same thing, and in the end listening to one group will piss off the other. It'll become a huge mess that no one will like anymore.

With the Sky deal(oh, and the ticket prices as well) Bernie has shown everyone that the morons we can call the "fanbase" will literally pay anything to watch F1. Sorry for this pessimistic statement, but you are seriously overestimating the fanbase.

Were have you been last decade?

http://www.motorsportsmarketingresource ... ds-700.jpg

http://292fc373eb1b8428f75b-7f75e5eb519 ... 20x348.jpg

I'm certain they make more money from that, then having full crowds for only 10% of the ticket price.

I could continue on and on about how dumb people are etc. etc., but in the end, the fanbase is just another one of Bernie's puppets.

Agree, but he´s ignoring it´s the fanbase what attract sponsors, with no sponsor no money, and it´s money what makes possible F1 to be the suposed pinnacle, so if you ignore the fanbase and they loose interest, F1 will soon die as we know it

No, it's the current economic environment that doesn't attract sponsors.

[sgth0mas]

I'm certain they make more money from that, then having full crowds for only 10% of the ticket price.
...

No, it's the current economic environment that doesn't attract sponsors.

You dont have to drop ticket prices by an order of magnitude...theres no sense in exaggerating to try and make your point correct.

Cutting ticket prices in half to double attendance will make you more money. $10 beers and $15 meals dictate that. Furthermore, you have the benefits to the local economies from lodging and additional entertainment.

The economics are much much more complex than simple ticket sales and face value.

And you're kind of almost close with reference to the current economy dropping sponsorship numbers. Its not about having the money, its about return on investment. With declining TV numbers and, massive portions of races skipped on DVR, there is little value to sponsors for F1. Marketing departments don't just give up during tough economies, they just look for the greatest value. Obviously F1 is far from that. That is unless you have companies like pdvsa who can somehow piss away $30MM a year regardless of how poor Venezuela is doing. Thats why F1 is booming in the Mideast.

You can't tell me with a serious face that merhi, Ericsson, and crashtor can't be replaced with a multitude of better drivers if midfield and backmarker teams didn't require pay drivers.

[langwadt]

Everything counts, I don´t watch F1 for any specific reason, but for many. It´s not the engine, it´s the whole package

Indeed, it's the wole package. A single track is hardly a piece of the puzzle. none of the F1 races have a singular importance as like the indy 500 or 24hrs ofLe Mans has.

I'd say the Monaco is up there. So much so that they are the only ones that don't have to pay Bernie

[FoxHound]

30 million for Maldonado by PDVSA is a snip.

The guy is always racing, alot of airtime is dedicated to him on this basis, furthermore he is involved in plenty of incidents.

He entertains. PDVSA get their exposure, a lot more than they ought to. Almost as if the guy has a contractual obligation to stir it up.

Also, wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a GP Venue union?
Bernie could demand his millions only for Monaco and a few others turn around and demand millions to host?

Bernie's nuts would shrink.

[Andres125sx]

I'm certain they make more money from that, then having full crowds for only 10% of the ticket price.
...

No, it's the current economic environment that doesn't attract sponsors.

You dont have to drop ticket prices by an order of magnitude...theres no sense in exaggerating to try and make your point correct.

Cutting ticket prices in half to double attendance will make you more money. $10 beers and $15 meals dictate that. Furthermore, you have the benefits to the local economies from lodging and additional entertainment.

The economics are much much more complex than simple ticket sales and face value.

Exactly, problem is they need to hope they´ll fullfill the stands with those exagerated prices to make some profit of hosting the GP due to the irrational F1 fees

Then they only sell half the tickets, and the business becomes a disaster. That´s how GPs like Hockenheim, Nurburgring or Valencia are no longer on the calendar

And you're kind of almost close with reference to the current economy dropping sponsorship numbers. Its not about having the money, its about return on investment. With declining TV numbers and, massive portions of races skipped on DVR, there is little value to sponsors for F1. Marketing departments don't just give up during tough economies, they just look for the greatest value. Obviously F1 is far from that. That is unless you have companies like pdvsa who can somehow piss away $30MM a year regardless of how poor Venezuela is doing. Thats why F1 is booming in the Mideast.

Exactly, and return on investment is proportional to viewers. With viewers numbers falling down prices to sponsor F1 teams are no longer profitable, so sponsors simply move to any other sport

You can't tell me with a serious face that merhi, Ericsson, and crashtor can't be replaced with a multitude of better drivers if midfield and backmarker teams didn't require pay drivers.

Right, except for Merhi, he does not put one single $, that´s the reason he probably will be substituded on next GPs, despite being a much better driver than Stevens

[Andres125sx]

I'm sorry, but this desired competitiveness is a myth. most of F1's history has been with domination, one, or a small group of teams dominating the sport.

Sorry but BS. There have been seasons with some team dominating, but that has never been standard on F1. And even with this scenario we´ve seen some beautiful competitions (Senna-Prost with McLaren-Honda domination)

But lately this is the standard: 2009 Brawn/Button domination, 2010-2013 RBR/Vettel domination, 2014-XXXX Mercedes/Lewis domination.... This is the seventh consecutive season with really poor competitiveness, if you think this is standard on F1, then sorry but I strongly disagree

This is biggest problem for current F1, all the rest can be more or less ignored, but a competition you know who will be the champion from first GP is condemned to disapear. If at least the dominating team would have had two drivers competing, that would save the season, but not the case

And this is the route F1 is folowing, you just have to take a look to audience numbers to realice this tendency must be stopped or F1 is condemned. Fans do not come and go, lately fans go and go

[ChrisF1]

It is actually standard for modern F1 -

These periods of domination have come from rule changes though. We all know that rule changes lead to the natural order being turned upside down. Just off the top of my head:

Chassis:
1998's rule changes saw Williams drop back (partly engine) and Mclaren rise to the top.
2009's rule changes saw Ferrari and Mclaren fall away and Red Bull rise to the top, only thwarted by a technical loophole that promoted Honda from crap to title winners.

Engines
Engine parity allowed Renault to close up through the 00's
2014's rule changes saw Red Bull fall away and Mercedes climb to the top.

Other
1994's rule changes saw Williams drop back a bit from domination and allowed Benetton to close in.


The current period of dominance is because the rules are if anything too strict. I know that sounds logically absurd, but as everything becomes closer to a spec formula, what used to be a small part of the overall package is now a massive influencer.

[wesley123]

Sorry but BS. There have been seasons with some team dominating, but that has never been standard on F1. And even with this scenario we´ve seen some beautiful competitions (Senna-Prost with McLaren-Honda domination)

But lately this is the standard: 2009 Brawn/Button domination, 2010-2013 RBR/Vettel domination, 2014-XXXX Mercedes/Lewis domination.... This is the seventh consecutive season with really poor competitiveness, if you think this is standard on F1, then sorry but I strongly disagree

This is biggest problem for current F1, all the rest can be more or less ignored, but a competition you know who will be the champion from first GP is condemned to disapear. If at least the dominating team would have had two drivers competing, that would save the season, but not the case

And this is the route F1 is folowing, you just have to take a look to audience numbers to realice this tendency must be stopped or F1 is condemned. Fans do not come and go, lately fans go and go

2014 - Mercedes
2010-2013 - Red Bull
2009 - Brawn
2007-2008 - McLaren/Ferrari
2005-2006 - Renault
2000-2004 - Ferrari
1998-1999 - McLaren
1992-1997 - Williams
1994-1995 - Benetton
1988-1991 - McLaren

And this has gone on, and on. Most of the years in F1 have been spend with the domination of one team or one driver. That is just the order of things, someone will excel in the environment. That always was and always will be.

Also, why do you name Senna-Prost as a beautiful competition, and not Rosberg-Hamilton? Those competition seems to be pretty much similar to me; 2 guys in the same team dominating the rest of the field. We even had a clash with both rivals because of the stakes of the championship. Or why not Vettel-Webber? Although that was more of an off-track thing, it was still very enjoyable. Or what about Alonso-Hamilton? The rivalry between these two and the whole -gate scandal surrounding it made McLaren lose a certain WDC and WCC.
Oh yes, i know it. Those rivalries didn't happen almost 30 years ago! It's fairly normal human behavior to think everything was better years ago.

[oT v1]

2010 and 2012 were very good years for F1 in my opinion, both going down to wire and more than 2 winning teams (2012 especially with so many winners)

[Phil]

The teams need to take control. Divvy it up fairly between the entrants an prize money.

The teams? You mean, the teams, who can't see eye to an eye in solving or at least even agreeing to even the most basic and logical problems? Democracy here doesn't seem to work. We need a strong regulator who is willing to do what is necessary in the good of the sport as a whole, not the individual. Problem is, there is a lot of different factors at play here, with many of the entrants with different goals. Some are here with the sole purpose of racing, others are here for maximum exposure and to sell more of whatever they are selling outside the realms of F1.

[Phil]

Sorry but BS. There have been seasons with some team dominating, but that has never been standard on F1. And even with this scenario we´ve seen some beautiful competitions (Senna-Prost with McLaren-Honda domination)

Personally, I think it's wishful thinking that the competitiveness (beyond what we have now) is even the sligthest relevant as to why F1 is losing its fans. It could be more competitive and it wouldn't matter at all. And I say that with some certainty; Last year we may have had one of the best seasons for some time if you account for the WDC thriller. A head-to-head battle between two drivers in the same car up until the last race. 2010 & 2012 was good too, mind you, but 2014 wasn't much worse in that sense. And guess what - the viewing numbers haven't been better or worse.

If you want better viewing numbers, F1 needs to think hard about pay-tv and exposure and also the price at the GP themselves. It's too expensive. And if we look at some pictures posted earlier with empty grandstands, one has to wonder what is better; normal prices with half empty seats, or half price with perhaps more people filling them. And GPs in the middle-east and other countries aren't helping - but if they can make up for those through TV exposure, why not.

And in reply to those visiting the GPs itself. IMO it makes absolutely ZERO difference if the drivers are pushing, full-on, or conserving tyres. If the cars are 5 tenths quicker or not, is also hugely irrelevant. From a casual observer, they are just going around in circles and a car will be only really visible for a few seconds anyway. Given that you only ever see 1% of the track, you're statistically likely to miss most of the action on track anyway. What's key is the noise and sensation and the atmosphere. And it would also help if the GPs are more attractive - for isntance, combine the race weekend with other series and events that attracks not only race-fans, but their spouses, kids, neighbours - everyone. And make it affordable. Some venues have done this successfully - others not so, and are now paying the price.

F1 has lots of issues, but competitiveness, I think is not one of them. Especially not in 2015 so far.

[ojlopez]

I think it is time for Bernie to step aside. Once he was a great promoter, but now he is like playing with a piñata, swinging and missing with every new decision to make the sport more "competitive" and "attract more fans". I will not go into discussing if the current engine formula is the way to go or not, but things like adding titanium skid blocks "to make more sparks", wider cars that will look more like "the golden era of F1", etc are pure desperation.

Everything changes, in this case, F1 has evolved into modern times. Manufacturers won't go into F1 or any other form of racing if they can't get anything out of it. The prestige of being in F1 seems to be not a great incentive this days.

So in my opinion Bernie must go.

[sgth0mas]

Sorry but BS. There have been seasons with some team dominating, but that has never been standard on F1. And even with this scenario we´ve seen some beautiful competitions (Senna-Prost with McLaren-Honda domination)

Personally, I think it's wishful thinking that the competitiveness (beyond what we have now) is even the sligthest relevant as to why F1 is losing its fans. It could be more competitive and it wouldn't matter at all. And I say that with some certainty; Last year we may have had one of the best seasons for some time if you account for the WDC thriller. A head-to-head battle between two drivers in the same car up until the last race. 2010 & 2012 was good too, mind you, but 2014 wasn't much worse in that sense. And guess what - the viewing numbers haven't been better or worse.

If you want better viewing numbers, F1 needs to think hard about pay-tv and exposure and also the price at the GP themselves. It's too expensive. And if we look at some pictures posted earlier with empty grandstands, one has to wonder what is better; normal prices with half empty seats, or half price with perhaps more people filling them. And GPs in the middle-east and other countries aren't helping - but if they can make up for those through TV exposure, why not.

And in reply to those visiting the GPs itself. IMO it makes absolutely ZERO difference if the drivers are pushing, full-on, or conserving tyres. If the cars are 5 tenths quicker or not, is also hugely irrelevant. From a casual observer, they are just going around in circles and a car will be only really visible for a few seconds anyway. Given that you only ever see 1% of the track, you're statistically likely to miss most of the action on track anyway. What's key is the noise and sensation and the atmosphere. And it would also help if the GPs are more attractive - for isntance, combine the race weekend with other series and events that attracks not only race-fans, but their spouses, kids, neighbours - everyone. And make it affordable. Some venues have done this successfully - others not so, and are now paying the price.

F1 has lots of issues, but competitiveness, I think is not one of them. Especially not in 2015 so far.

I didn't realize just how much I missed the noise of a race engine until I attended a few other racing series. It makes a bigger impact then I would have thought. It's embarrassing for F1 that the safety car sounds better than the race cars.

But ill have to disagree and say that It absolutely matters if drivers are pushing the whole race or saving tires. Watch the first 3 MotoGP races this year and tell me it isn't more exciting to see someone pushing. I agree that lap time has little bearing now... But on track battles do.

And having grandstands full of kids also helps the long term future of the sport.

I've only been to 1 venue for F1 and I'll say that I agree GP planning and track matters. At COTA, you can see quite a bit of action in the turn 12-15 sequence, as well as the esses and such. So you get more than 1s of action...but I've heard from friends that other tracks aren't great viewing. however combining too many events takes away...with the USGP race being on Halloween weekend last year in a city as weird as Austin, there were a lot of complaints.

I agree that pay TV is a large factor, but people need perceived battles, heroes and action. The perception of a lot of these guys isn't close to that of past racers.

[Andres125sx]

2014 - Mercedes
2010-2013 - Red Bull
2009 - Brawn
2007-2008 - McLaren/Ferrari
2005-2006 - Renault
2000-2004 - Ferrari
1998-1999 - McLaren
1992-1997 - Williams
1994-1995 - Benetton
1988-1991 - McLaren

And this has gone on, and on. Most of the years in F1 have been spend with the domination of one team or one driver. That is just the order of things, someone will excel in the environment. That always was and always will be.

Have you checked that list? Or only posting as if it is a proof of something by itself?

2007-2008 McLaren/Ferrari.... You must be kidding, if there´re two teams then there´s no domination at all, but a nice competition

2005-2006 Renault.... Sorry? 2005: Alonso (Renault) 7 victories. Kimi (McLaren) 7 victories. 2006 exactly the same substituding Kimi with Schumacher, 7 victories for Alonso and 7 for Schumacher (Ferrari)

1998-1999 McLaren.... Again same BS. There was same victories for McLaren and Ferrari on both seasons, so no domination at all

And so on...

Also, why do you name Senna-Prost as a beautiful competition, and not Rosberg-Hamilton? Those competition seems to be pretty much similar to me; 2 guys in the same team dominating the rest of the field.

Except Senna-Prost was a true competition between similar drivers, while Rosberg-Hamilton was an artificial competition due to the mechanical problems Lewis suffered on first part of the championship that provided some advantage to Rosberg wich was then neutralized by the easily better driver. Yes there was some competition, but not comparable

We even had a clash with both rivals because of the stakes of the championship. Or why not Vettel-Webber? Although that was more of an off-track thing, it was still very enjoyable. Or what about Alonso-Hamilton? The rivalry between these two and the whole -gate scandal surrounding it made McLaren lose a certain WDC and WCC.

I never said there has never been competition on F1, but lately it is becoming far from usual. Last seven seasons only when dominating team have suffered some mechanical problems (Lewis 2014) or the driver made some mistakes (Vettel 2010), or some driver performed some unbelieveble perfomance (Alonso 2012). Only these issues provided some excitement to the last seven seasons

Oh yes, i know it. Those rivalries didn't happen almost 30 years ago! It's fairly normal human behavior to think everything was better years ago.

Specially when it was

[Andres125sx]

Sorry but BS. There have been seasons with some team dominating, but that has never been standard on F1. And even with this scenario we´ve seen some beautiful competitions (Senna-Prost with McLaren-Honda domination)

Personally, I think it's wishful thinking that the competitiveness (beyond what we have now) is even the sligthest relevant as to why F1 is losing its fans. It could be more competitive and it wouldn't matter at all. And I say that with some certainty; Last year we may have had one of the best seasons for some time if you account for the WDC thriller. A head-to-head battle between two drivers in the same car up until the last race. 2010 & 2012 was good too, mind you, but 2014 wasn't much worse in that sense. And guess what - the viewing numbers haven't been better or worse.

Sorry Phil but not true. It´s hard to find F1 audience graphs, but I don´t think you can point 2014 as an example of a season with good competitiveness wich didn´t see an audience increase. 2014 was a Mercedes season easy, yes there was some uncertainity, but only to see if Lewis managed to catch up after suffering mechanical problems first part of the season. 6 victories on last 7 GPs are a proof by itself.

Also, there´re some graphs out there wich are self-explanatory, for example:

The tendency is easy to see, falling down. But if you analyse it further, then you see the only increases occured exactly on seasons when there was no domination at all
2006 Tough competition between Alonso(Renault) and Schumacher (Ferrari). 7 victories each one. Audience increase
2007-2008 Not increases but neither decreases when Ferrari and Mclaren had a tough fight
2010 Good competitivenes with one car dominating when reliability was not an issue or Vettel didn´t crash with Button or Webber. Audience increase due to uncertainity
2012 Again good competitiveness only due to some issues Red Bull suffered with alternator, and an awesome season by Alonso wich made the season competitive. Audience increase

Competitiveness equals audience increases. Lack of competition equals audience decrease.

Anycase you don´t need too much analysis, just talking with people you notice lack of competitiveness make F1 boring for most people and they just stop watching