Does F1 need another tweak to overtaking rules?

[Nickel]

This is all very easy. If the car on the outside is slightly ahead when the braking starts for the corner (the normal braking point for the corner), the driver on the inside has no right to drive the car on the outside off the track. If he does, give the place back.

If both cars are side by side when the normal braking point starts, the car on the inside has the right for the corner. The outside driver can then expect that he won’t be given any room should he try to complete the move.

If the driver on the outside brakes too late, he will penalize himself by going off track or go too deep into the corner.

This has never ever been a problem before, and is very easy to fix now. Just do it.

I have an even better solution I think:

If a driver is alongside at entry, defined as having front axel level with the other car's rear axel, they are entitled to space until such time as overlap is lost. The concept of corner ownership is hereby abolished with prejudice.

No other major series has these stupid rules that allow you to push another driver off that I can think of. The whole thing is silly.

[chrisc90]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/arti ... 5wwzl052go

[Silent Storm]

[PapayaFan481]

Martin makes a good point, we need permanent professional stewards.

Maybe ex-drivers or maybe they actually train up non-drivers to be permanent stewards.

If they want people who can understand complex rules and regulations and make fast decisions in a high pressure environment.....seems like Air Traffic Controllers, Paramedics, Emergency Doctors, Air Traffic Controllers and other professionals would be great people to bring in and train up for that role.

I was thinking that perhaps another aspect to to stewarding would be if all the drivers were polled after the race to see whether they agree or disagree with decisions made. Stewards then could help guide their decision making accordingly.

[kptaylor]

I do tend to agree with Horner as he was showing data on Lando vs. Max. If your fastest lap shows specific data on braking and entry speed, and the overtake exceeded that, the stewards should apply some common sense. A dive-bomb or a massive late braking attempt shouldn't be rewarded if there was no rational way it would have succeeded versus relying on the new rules interpretation.

[dialtone]

I do tend to agree with Horner as he was showing data on Lando vs. Max. If your fastest lap shows specific data on braking and entry speed, and the overtake exceeded that, the stewards should apply some common sense. A dive-bomb or a massive late braking attempt shouldn't be rewarded if there was no rational way it would have succeeded versus relying on the new rules interpretation.

That was a lie. Horner always lies.



It was in fact Max that was faster than NOR's fastest lap attempt when turning into T7/8.

And NOR's fastest lap attempt had no DRS so for any of the previous corners he was going to be slower anyway.

[Vanja #66]

That was a lie. Horner always lies.

https://i.imgur.com/9vLa37n.png

It was in fact Max that was faster than NOR's fastest lap attempt when turning into T7/8.

And NOR's fastest lap attempt had no DRS so for any of the previous corners he was going to be slower anyway.

He didn't lie mate, Norris was off brakes earlier and gave a little throttle blip on approach to get ahead of Max



If Max got a 10s penalty for that, Norris should have gotten 10s himself for passing off track. The more I look into both incidents, the more british bias of stewards reeks

[Tvetovnato]

I do tend to agree with Horner as he was showing data on Lando vs. Max. If your fastest lap shows specific data on braking and entry speed, and the overtake exceeded that, the stewards should apply some common sense. A dive-bomb or a massive late braking attempt shouldn't be rewarded if there was no rational way it would have succeeded versus relying on the new rules interpretation.

Firstly, you can literally see with your own eyes onboard with Norris that he is making that corner. And secondly, it’s perfectly reasonable to carry overspeed when going into the corner like Lando did. Comparing it to his fastest lap is not valid, as going quickly through that corner combination for a fast lap means that you need to go slower in the corner the overtake happened to get the right line into the following right hander. All Lando had to do here was to stay within the white lines with a couple of wheels, which he was doing until Max drove him off.

[dialtone]

That was a lie. Horner always lies.

https://i.imgur.com/9vLa37n.png

It was in fact Max that was faster than NOR's fastest lap attempt when turning into T7/8.

And NOR's fastest lap attempt had no DRS so for any of the previous corners he was going to be slower anyway.

He didn't lie mate, Norris was off brakes earlier and gave a little throttle blip on approach to get ahead of Max
...

If Max got a 10s penalty for that, Norris should have gotten 10s himself for passing off track. The more I look into both incidents, the more british bias of stewards reeks

Seems like you are looking at T4, and Lando was making that corner 100%, Max hits Lando his front left and forces Lando off track and to cut the chicane. Into T4 Lando comes with DRS and slipstream and brakes earlier and is 17kph slower than when he start braking on his fast lap (294v277). I don't think you can watch the onboard and think that there is any doubt that Lando would have made that corner on his own.

Then into T7-8 Lando is quite simply a lot slower, he's 30kph slower than his fast lap and 40kph slower than Max on entry to T7 and again takes away his front left.

I will agree that Lando did pass off track in T4 and should have been penalized for that.

[Vanja #66]

Seems like you are looking at T4, and Lando was making that corner 100%, Max hits Lando his front left and forces Lando off track and to cut the chicane. Into T4 Lando comes with DRS and slipstream and brakes earlier and is 17kph slower than when he start braking on his fast lap (294v277). I don't think you can watch the onboard and think that there is any doubt that Lando would have made that corner on his own.

Then into T7-8 Lando is quite simply a lot slower, he's 30kph slower than his fast lap and 40kph slower than Max on entry to T7 and again takes away his front left.

I will agree that Lando did pass off track in T4 and should have been penalized for that.

Horner did only show the data for T4, he argued Norris went in to get to the apex first and force a penalty on Max without any intent to make the corner. Not sure about intent, but he wouldn't have made the corner without a lot more brake and a lot sooner than he did apply it, especially T5.

[dialtone]

Seems like you are looking at T4, and Lando was making that corner 100%, Max hits Lando his front left and forces Lando off track and to cut the chicane. Into T4 Lando comes with DRS and slipstream and brakes earlier and is 17kph slower than when he start braking on his fast lap (294v277). I don't think you can watch the onboard and think that there is any doubt that Lando would have made that corner on his own.

Then into T7-8 Lando is quite simply a lot slower, he's 30kph slower than his fast lap and 40kph slower than Max on entry to T7 and again takes away his front left.

I will agree that Lando did pass off track in T4 and should have been penalized for that.

Horner did only show the data for T4, he argued Norris went in to get to the apex first and force a penalty on Max without any intent to make the corner. Not sure about intent, but he wouldn't have made the corner without a lot more brake and a lot sooner than he did apply it, especially T5.

You can look at the onboard on F1TV.






This is the moment of contact with Max and Lando's wheel has straightened to avoid contact on his side and of course goes to cut the chicane.

Into T4 the braking point for lando was 150m on lap 10, it was 100m on his fast lap and the entry speed into the corner for Lando was 17kph slower than on his fast lap, not 25kph faster.

To me with the images and the onboard it is beyond any shadow of doubt that Lando was making that corner without Max.

Anyway...

[fourmula1]

It is quite obvious he was making that corner. Have to appreciate what data can provide, in this instance it is being used by team boss to defend his driver (understandably), and the data is basically incomplete and being used to mislead. You cant just look at those graphs and determine he was not making the corner. You do not have enough information.

[Zynerji]

Martin makes a good point, we need permanent professional stewards.

Maybe ex-drivers or maybe they actually train up non-drivers to be permanent stewards.

If they want people who can understand complex rules and regulations and make fast decisions in a high pressure environment.....seems like Air Traffic Controllers, Paramedics, Emergency Doctors, Air Traffic Controllers and other professionals would be great people to bring in and train up for that role.

I was thinking that perhaps another aspect to to stewarding would be if all the drivers were polled after the race to see whether they agree or disagree with decisions made. Stewards then could help guide their decision making accordingly.

With strategic 4k camera inputs and no driver/team bias, one would think AI would be the perfect arbiter of rules.

[PapayaFan481]

Martin makes a good point, we need permanent professional stewards.

Maybe ex-drivers or maybe they actually train up non-drivers to be permanent stewards.

If they want people who can understand complex rules and regulations and make fast decisions in a high pressure environment.....seems like Air Traffic Controllers, Paramedics, Emergency Doctors, Air Traffic Controllers and other professionals would be great people to bring in and train up for that role.

I was thinking that perhaps another aspect to to stewarding would be if all the drivers were polled after the race to see whether they agree or disagree with decisions made. Stewards then could help guide their decision making accordingly.

With strategic 4k camera inputs and no driver/team bias, one would think AI would be the perfect arbiter of rules.

AI has a looooooooooooong way to go yet.

[PapayaFan481]

Seems like you are looking at T4, and Lando was making that corner 100%, Max hits Lando his front left and forces Lando off track and to cut the chicane. Into T4 Lando comes with DRS and slipstream and brakes earlier and is 17kph slower than when he start braking on his fast lap (294v277). I don't think you can watch the onboard and think that there is any doubt that Lando would have made that corner on his own.

Then into T7-8 Lando is quite simply a lot slower, he's 30kph slower than his fast lap and 40kph slower than Max on entry to T7 and again takes away his front left.

I will agree that Lando did pass off track in T4 and should have been penalized for that.

Horner did only show the data for T4, he argued Norris went in to get to the apex first and force a penalty on Max without any intent to make the corner. Not sure about intent, but he wouldn't have made the corner without a lot more brake and a lot sooner than he did apply it, especially T5.

So Horner argued that Lando should have gotten a penalty for basically doing what Max did last week without getting a penalty?

Seems about right for Mr Horner.