Say no to Chinese GP!

[manchild]

Who here has said they support any of that? Just because you feel so strongly about it doesn't mean we don't. So please, stop acting like we are all the criminals. It says alot about you that your feelings are that we are all guilty by association.

Let me ask you this MC. What can little me, living in Columbus Georgia USA, do to some Chinese Communist moron hell bent on committing mass murder? Send him a strongly worded email? Or maybe an internet petition that won't meant jack squat to Gen. Chinese Commie man? Or how about a strongly worded forum post like this one on his favorite site? How can I stop something that they have been doing for alot longer than 50 years when I have no power within my own government damn near, much less theirs?


And YOU have no right to come on here and DEMAND that people support your views. You need to get a grip on yourself Manchild. I respect you and your opinions even though they aren't always the same as mine, but I'll be damned to have someone preach to me over the internet. You aren't the last word in what all of us should do and say, and I'm quite amused that you automatically assume we all don't care. Great way to insult a whole forums community. Don't preach to me any more, I get enough of that --- through my media here in the States.

One more thing. What exactly are you doing about it MC?

I didn't say that all of the forum members are pr*cks but only some of them. Not raising voice against those crimes is same as saying they support those crimes, especially since they found the need to write something in this thread aimed against idea of boycott but nothing if favor of people who suffer.

I don't demand anything. I just have zero tolerance against fascism, mass murderers, terrorism etc. There is no debate possible with such villains, countries and organizations. I'm expressing my opinion in a way that I'm not allowing any support for murderers and tyrants of any sort. Remember WWII? No talk with Nazis, no political analysis and debate about holocaust but bullet in their heads and rope for those who get caught alive. Now tell me that that was a bad approach and that free world should have sit back, let holocaust go on and do nothing but boycott products from Nazi Germany?

"Small" people like you and me can't do much about that communist beast but at least we can raise a voice and try to point out on something. That's something compared to doing absolutely nothing or supporting Chinese GP organizers. At least for the peace of our minds and clear conscience. If enough small people from the free world raise their voice than their governments will have to take measures against China according to will of their voters. That's the basic idea.

http://www.tibet.com/Action/act.html

You know, Lady Diana was a perfect example of that. She could have been sitting in UK, enjoying life and not caring but she didn't because she felt responsibility to raise her voice against injustice and to give at least moral support to those in need. Ask yourself why did she visited starving people, people who got injured with anti-infantry mines, visiting people who were dying from incurable diseases... even risking her own life and health? That wasn't her job, that was her choice because she was human in the true meaning of that word. She also couldn't change it but being a person with moral considers that you don't turn your head and don't speak up. Many other famous and infamous people are doing it too.

Some people mentioned boycott of Chinese products as the best way to fight that regime? China is committing genocide in Tibet for almost 60 years now and up to 10 or 15 years ago there weren't any of their products on the global market but that didn't prevent them to kill Tibetans for 40 years. Even more, if boycott of products is found by some as good way to harm them, than how come no one sees Chinese GP as one of their biggest product, sold and advertised globally trough every possible media from which they'll make millions?

You asked what I'm doing? Well, I made a topic in one of the most famous F1 forums and suggested boycott idea hoping that it would spread among F1 world.

[manchild]

20th March 2008, China

Announcement from the Internet Surveillance Bureau

We inform Internet users that it is forbidden to post news about Tibetan events. From today, the Internet Surveillance Bureau will carry out filtering and censorship.
It is forbidden to post, circulate or discuss reports about Tibetan events in Chengdu.
Anyone infringing this ban will have their IP address sent to the police who will take the necessary steps.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=26297

[mcdenife]

I've always said that there are racists, fascists, neo-nazis as well as other cruel, primitive and backward individuals among F1 fans too, so your post is no surprise to me.

Did you really mean to suggest I am a racist, fascist, neo-nazi, cruel, primitive and backward individual?

[wazojugs]

I don't remember something like this on this forum the previous time the Chinese GP was run.

So why the big fuss now and not then, if we are that concerned about tibet?

[Ted68]

Because on 10 March, the 10 year anniversary of Tibet's last revolt, 19 Tibetan demonstrators were killed by Chinese military police. Since then, over 100 more have been officially killed in uprisings. Thats why it's been on the nightly news lately.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, to complement Ted's answer, you should also take in account that "the protests soon shifted from calls for independence to violence, attacks on non-Tibetan ethnic groups, rioting, burning and looting on March 14".

Also, "... the Economist noted that the rioting seemed to be fuelled by ethnic hatred" http://www.economist.com/daily/news/dis ... op_story=1

"An eyewitness at the scene said monks set police cars on fire after a peaceful demonstration near a small temple in Lhasa was stopped by police". http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 559355.ece

"The monks are still protesting. Police and army cars were burned. There are people crying, she said". http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ ... C0A6DF.htm

"The mobs, ranging from small groups of youths (some armed with traditional Tibetan swords) to crowds of many dozens, including women and children, rampaged through the narrow alleys of the Tibetan quarter. They battered the shutters of shops, broke in and seized whatever they could, from hunks of meat to gas canisters and clothing. Some goods they carried away, while other goods were thrown into large fires lit on the street." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-p ... 296837.stm

"Little children could also be seen looting a toyshop as well. The mobs also attacked ethnic Chinese on the streets, including a bus, taxis, and a boy on a bicycle. James Miles reported seeing a Han Chinese teenage boy plead to a monk to help him hide because of the violent mobs around the city." http://www.economist.com/daily/news/dis ... op_story=1

"According to the London-based Free Tibet Campaign, an eye witness inside Lhasa saw rioters set a mosque on fire late on Friday night (March 14), possibly in protest at the increasingly large Hui ethnic community in Lhasa." http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080315/ts ... 0315011805

"Canadian tourist John Kenwood after coming back from Tibet told The Times about the experience: 'It's hard to pick a side in what happened, I agree that the Tibetans have their own culture, but I can't agree with what people did. After a while, it was not about Tibetan freedom any more.'" http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 37,00.html

So, as usual, it's hard to know who should be boycotted. Notice I did not have an opinion on Tibet uprising, I'm only quoting witnesses and reliable newspaper sources.

After reading all that (thanks, Manchild, I haven't looked into it), I don't know if I should boycott the Tibetan or the Chinese GP, but the normally NPOV Wikipedia article on the issue indicates that this is simple riot control, plus the regular and "generous" Chinese "freedom of press".

If you want to hear it from a person that should know what he's talking about, then hear what Mr. Patrick Hickey, the head of the European Olympic Committees, said in an interview with the Associated Press. "Under no circumstance will we support the boycott. We are 100 percent unanimous. Not one government leader has called for a boycott. A boycott is only a punishment of the athletes." http://malaysia.news.yahoo.com/ap/20080 ... 10fb8.html

I also agree with Tomba's subtle gesture: we already have plenty of friendly political discussion in this forum thanks to his generosity, in the "Others" section (I'm still proud of my forecast of the subprime debacle almost two years ago, or the prescient vision of 100 dollars a barrel of oil when it was at 20 dollars, ehem).

Compare this forum, which is NOT famous, (or, at least, nobody asks me why I write soooo good and excellent posts here ) with others full of moderators with an agenda. Anyway, Manchild, we don't have these discussions in the F1 talk section, c'mon, you're one of the more rational persons I know, breath a little, we need you here. And remember, a drop of honey...

[wazojugs]

I don't remember something like this on this forum the previous time the Chinese GP was run.

So why the big fuss now and not then, if we are that concerned about tibet?

Thanks for the post Ciro and Ted, i do know about the situation in Tibet and not gained this information in the last month from watching the new at 10 and the daily mail.

What i was trying to point out that no-one on following F1 gave any comment in 2007, 2006, 2005 and 2004 and the free tibet brigade did not chain themselves to the gates in the opening year of the GP and every other foloowing year. Yes its an important anniversary this year, but if the people who do care would have made the movement of abandoning the GP many years earlier and not now on the anniversary band wagon.

[manchild]

17% Tibetan population killed by China!

1.200.000 man, woman and children!

Trying to find any responsibility for what is going on it Tibet on the side of Tibetans is like blaming Jews for Warsaw ghetto uprising!

After 50 years of constant genocide and torture please don't tell me that unarmed civilians who are hardly ever defending themselves from Chinese army are to be be blamed for anything! Even if they weren't usually just peacefully protesting, they have every right to use force too just as citizens of any European country occupied by Nazis had the right to destroy anything belonging to Nazis and to attack uniformed and non-uniformed occupators.

There was no genocide against Frenchmen during WWII for example but I've never heard anyone saying that resistance was to be blamed for killing Nazi soldiers, Nazi civilian personnel and collaborators! Same goes for any resistance movement anywhere in the world.

I don't give a sh*t about what someone from Olympic committee thinks, it's not his life or life of his children endangered! He only thinks about filling this pockets.

As we speak, China has expelled two last remaining reporters from Tibet, brings in troops without insignia to prevent identification and prepares for more mass murders. So, there'll hardly be any photos of video footage taken but there will be dead bodies. That is not a country, that is a concentration camp!

http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=50

Take a deep look in their eyes and tell me that F1 should go in country that has killed over one million of them so far and kills them as we speak!

[Ciro Pabón]

Manchild, this is Godwin Law of Threads: "if you mention Hitler or Nazis in a post, you've automatically ended whatever discussion you were taking part in".

You can read the venerable Usenet article on the issue: How to post about Nazis and get away with it - the Godwin's Law FAQ

One of the Corollaries to Godwin Law state: "Somebody's eventually going to say something about the Nazis in any thread that lasts very long. When it happens, the thread is going to start either degenerating into a long flamewar over Nazi Germany or about Godwin's Law. Either way, the thread is effectively over, and you can safely killfile the thread and move on."

So, to end my participation in this thread, having mentioned Godwin's, I had no idea that in 1950 invasion of Tibet allegedly caused 1.2 million deaths. I also did not know that there is a trial at a spanish court on the issue. What a coincidence, I'd say.

I also looked up for wiki on Tibetan uprising, and I "falled" inadvertently into the 1959 Tibetan uprising article. I found this little "pièce de résistance" that fired all my "political alarms": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Hale

The United States funded training and arms for the guerrillas in Tibet and the United States prior to the uprising and for several years following. From 1959 to 1964, Tibetan guerrillas were secretly trained at Camp Hale by the CIA.

The Tibetan project was codenamed ST Circus, and it was similar to the CIA operation that trained dissident Cubans in what later became the Bay of Pigs Invasion. In all, around 259 Tibetans were trained at Camp Hale. Some were parachuted back into Tibet to link up with local resistance groups (most perished); others were sent overland into Tibet on intelligence gathering missions; and yet others were instrumental in setting up the CIA-funded Tibetan resistance force that operated out of Mustang, in northern Nepal (1959-1974).

So, the circle of life is complete: Manchild mentions Nazis, Ciro mentions CIA...

Actually, this should be "Pabón Corollary to Goodwin's Law": once somebody mentions Nazi Germany in a thread, somebody else is going to mention Goodwin Law and CIA.

Finally, I ended reading parts of "A history of the modern Tibet" by . I found it fascinating for my latin, romantic side, with incomprehensible and macabre things like this:



My "positive conclusion" on what I learned trying to follow this thread:

Tibet was invaded by China in 1950, in a complicated environment, that included a communist revolution and a feudal system in Tibet. There was an uprising in 1959 that included clashes between the Tibetan and Chinese armies and US support for 10 years, that ended abruptly in 1969. Fifty years after the invasion, there is heavy unrest among the Tibetans, that feel invaded in their culture and ways of life by Chinese migration.

So, I won't boycott the Chinese GP for reasons already mentioned by Ray, joseff, conceptual and greene (welcome, greene!).

[manchild]

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