Why were the 2004 cars so much faster than everything else?

[bizadfar]

Quite surprisingly, most of the 2004 qualifying times are approached by...2002 cars!
The difference on most track is under one second.

because in 2002 u could setup ur car soley for qualifying, ie low fuel, quali engine, quali brakes, and u got 12 laps to go nuts.

2003, race fuel load introduced to reduce costs (wow, something that actually worked by FIA ) ban quali engines/brakes/components changed after quali basically (parc ferme)

oi i got a question.

People say 2004 cars were highly aerodynamic, i dont they were anything special, look at 2008, these cars are the most aerodynamic, they have all these little things added and 2004 can't be more aerodynamic, just look at the 04 cars, they look too basic

You wanted progress didnt u?

in the 80s they had turbos almost twice the power of current engines.

[Scotracer]

God what I'd give to see a 2004 chassis, coupled with a 1986 Quali Turbo engine and 2009 spec slicks....

[Conceptual]

... I feel that the fans should be consulted on more issues as well. This is a sport afterall and it's only function should be entertainment. If they held a public vote (in an area with a good knowledge-base (such as this site) we may get a more balanced input into the new regulations. Of course regular fans can't make technical decisions but they can at least give those involved a direction to take...

I agree with more fan input. there should be more wide based quetionaires. on the other hand I thought that F1 has taken some fan input from the AMD/FIA questionaires on board. re: driver aids, saving Spa!! and for 2009 a serious go at improving overtaking.

White Blue, I think of all of your posts so far (580 or so in 2 months) that this is the most rediculous thing that I have read from you so far.

F1 will ALWAYS have a rabid fanbase, regardless of what the regulations are, what the cars look like, and where they race at.

The average F1 fan has ZERO clue as to why things are the way they are. All they care about is that everyone has to adhere to the SAME RULES, and that there is honest and honorable competition. I think the MOMENT that you allow the uneducated and ulterior motivated fans start making the direction decisions for F1 that you will lose what really keeps them glued to the TV, and that is teams showing up and competing.

I can't think of anything worse than having a fan directed formula. The teams, and objective reality should govern F1. Not people that have no clue as to the engineering and manufacturing as well as logistical operations that are required to globe-trot for an entire season.

The fact is, that in everything that becomes fan feedback oriented only ends up as a disgusting mess and a flimsy shell of the greatness that it once was. Remember, people that want to bitch and complain always have more motivation to register, post and vote for change than someone that loves the current settings and wants them to stay the same.

But, I guess there are some that live their life on message boards trying to sway the populace to their point of view. That only makes you another politician, and not a benefit to the technical development or the commercial appeal of F1.

But we already know that, right?

Chris

[Ogami musashi]

Thanks about the info of pre 2003 qualifying, i did not know it (i didn't follow F1 from this years).


I agree fan input should not be considered, it is so evident on forums that grotesque ideas or simplified ones emerge all the time.

It would result in one of the most funny thing is the world: pure contradiction.

How many fans voice for the ban of aeros? and how many of them want to see fast battle with cars that slide?

How many want freedom in regulations but want level field?

There're so many examples.

Even people that know more about F1 know little in reality (i include myself in that).

The actual rules have not popped up from FIA's hat, they have history and context, yet every one wants to make their new rules.

However in spite of Conceptual's view, i think the problem is that each one wants to see a different F1 and that's another reason why it should not be fan oriented.

Some want to see car slide, some want to see car not sliding, some want to see fast accelerations, some want to slower the cars, some want turbos, some want V10 atmospheric etc..

It would be a mess.

I think we should stick to some natural values, like safety, spectacle, cost and ecology and then see what is feasible and next what is the best into those limits...here you can listen to fans over what they want but remember the list of choice is driven by realities.

[Conceptual]

Thanks about the info of pre 2003 qualifying, i did not know it (i didn't follow F1 from this years).


I agree fan input should not be considered, it is so evident on forums that grotesque ideas or simplified ones emerge all the time.

It would result in one of the most funny thing is the world: pure contradiction.

How many fans voice for the ban of aeros? and how many of them want to see fast battle with cars that slide?

How many want freedom in regulations but want level field?

There're so many examples.

Even people that know more about F1 know little in reality (i include myself in that).

The actual rules have not popped up from FIA's hat, they have history and context, yet every one wants to make their new rules.

However in spite of Conceptual's view, i think the problem is that each one wants to see a different F1 and that's another reason why it should not be fan oriented.

Some want to see car slide, some want to see car not sliding, some want to see fast accelerations, some want to slower the cars, some want turbos, some want V10 atmospheric etc..

It would be a mess.

I think we should stick to some natural values, like safety, spectacle, cost and ecology and then see what is feasible and next what is the best into those limits...here you can listen to fans over what they want but remember the list of choice is driven by realities.

That is pretty much what I was getting at. I broadjumped that when I said about the messageboard politicians changing points of view. Those less knowledgable would follow those that (seem) more knowledgable. And then you would end up with less than what the FIA gives, and only have internet personalities to hold accountable.

Chris

[WhiteBlue]

... I feel that the fans should be consulted on more issues as well. This is a sport afterall and it's only function should be entertainment. If they held a public vote (in an area with a good knowledge-base (such as this site) we may get a more balanced input into the new regulations. Of course regular fans can't make technical decisions but they can at least give those involved a direction to take...

I agree with more fan input. there should be more wide based quetionaires. on the other hand I thought that F1 has taken some fan input from the AMD/FIA questionaires on board. re: driver aids, saving Spa!! and for 2009 a serious go at improving overtaking.

White Blue, I think of all of your posts so far (580 or so in 2 months) that this is the most rediculous thing that I have read from you so far.

F1 will ALWAYS have a rabid fanbase, regardless of what the regulations are, what the cars look like, and where they race at.

The average F1 fan has ZERO clue as to why things are the way they are. All they care about is that everyone has to adhere to the SAME RULES, and that there is honest and honorable competition. I think the MOMENT that you allow the uneducated and ulterior motivated fans start making the direction decisions for F1 that you will lose what really keeps them glued to the TV, and that is teams showing up and competing.

I can't think of anything worse than having a fan directed formula. The teams, and objective reality should govern F1. Not people that have no clue as to the engineering and manufacturing as well as logistical operations that are required to globe-trot for an entire season.

The fact is, that in everything that becomes fan feedback oriented only ends up as a disgusting mess and a flimsy shell of the greatness that it once was. Remember, people that want to bitch and complain always have more motivation to register, post and vote for change than someone that loves the current settings and wants them to stay the same.

But, I guess there are some that live their life on message boards trying to sway the populace to their point of view. That only makes you another politician, and not a benefit to the technical development or the commercial appeal of F1.

But we already know that, right?

Chris

TX for your insights and superb politeness, conceptual! Let me go strait to the core of the issue instead of giving you feed back regarding your personal comments.

I do think that both F1 and FIA are well advised to find out what the customer base thinks of the product and what the preferences of the viewing public are regarding F1.

This is obviously not very professionally done if they listen to a message board with some thousand members in one language instead of sampling the opinions of hundred thouthands of people from very different cultures using very different media world wide.

It certainly helps with the accuracy of an opinon probe to increase the input diversity instead of relying on the genius a few however intelligent, strategic thinking and conceptual individuals.

This basic consideration drove me to the conclusion that the two annual AMD opinion probes must have contributed towards a better positioning of F1 in the entertainment business. It also logically followes that the discontinuation of the effort means that further opportunities at optimization are missed.

If the FIA had continued the exercise in the following years and supported this with analysis and feed back they could have a good database on customer satisfaction and the evolution of quality over the years. In that context it can be seen as a misssed opportunity for F1 and marketing researchers. it also was a missed opportunity in terms of showing that the PTB care about the fan base and is prepared to take action on their behalve.

It needs no further comment that doing a solid job at customer feed back doesn't necessarily mean to use the the information for an automated rule making control. I agree with ogami musashi that F1 has a core identity that is based on it's history and continuity. I do not agree with the theory that F1 will always have a fan base.

that will obviously depend on how well the sport is governed and the business of entertainement is managed. one just has to look at the example of CART and NASCAR to conclude that bad marketing and decision making can give rise to competing concepts in a fiercely contested market. commercial success is not everything, sure. but a lack of it can terminate a good motor racing series. equaly a lack of sporting fairness in the governing will be seen as cynical and can quickly erode the support of the public.

I did not think that elaborating on these thoughts merits a dedicated thread so I apologise to all those who were expecting a contribution on the 2004 cars for going off topic slightly.

[Conceptual]

Lets see what happens with the breakaway possibility.

I dont agree with everything you said in your retort White Blue, but that is OK. I think fan feedback is the worst possible thing to base any decisions upon, ever, and I have seen it happen first hand in other things, much to the disgust of everyone BUT the crybaby-peepants that couldnt compete under the then current rules due to lack of skill or dedication.

I will watch F1 as long as the rules are designed in a self-limiting manner, are the same for everyone, and unbiasedly enforced.

The only way that F1 will lose every single fan is for no-one to show up... And that may be what Bernie is doing right now. But the current fans will simply follow to the newly named series.

They will still be there watching the best in the world compete on a fair ballteground. The name is NOT everything.

Chris

[Scotracer]

Well with the breaking news that the FIA is contemplating further limiting engine performance via ECU control to make the races a level playing field, this break-away needs to happen FAST. I can't believe what F1 has become in recent years.

My signature speaks my opinion in the best fashion.