"Golden Age" of drivers.

[timbo]

I think it was a gradual process of increasing effort in driver's training. I read it was Alain Prost who was first to have his personal gym-trainer and physiotherapist. I also read he was also the first to use that fructose "energy" drinks before the race (they are not for coffeine primarely). MS pushed envelope even further and raised driver's fitness to a new level. Enyone remember seing Ayrton Senna and Niger Mansell completely exhausted after the race, we don't see this that often these days, however we have Malasia and Bahrein GPs that are VERY hot.
So drivers today are much better trained and cared than earlier and team takes as much effort in working with driver as in making the car.

However, I think that earlier cars were much harder to drive and it took much more effort to push it to the limit.

[gcdugas]

Enyone remember seing Ayrton Senna and Niger Mansell completely exhausted after the race, we don't see this that often these days, however we have Malasia and Bahrein GPs that are VERY hot.

Didn't Jarno Trulli just sit in the car at the end of the Malysian GP this year waiting to regain his strength before he could stand up and walk (to the nearest bench).

[timbo]

Didn't Jarno Trulli just sit in the car at the end of the Malysian GP this year waiting to regain his strength before he could stand up and walk (to the nearest bench).

Maybe, but that's often cases when driver is somewhat ill or his water tube brakes.
I think it is absolute truth (which is quite a rare thing ) that drivers today are fit like never before.

[gcdugas]

2008 has had a very high number of wet races which are often lotteries. I am not taking anything away from Vettel but the high number of wet races has fooled us into thinking we are seeing more variety than is really there. F1 is still largely a procession. In any age that calls itself "golden" whether it is the late 70s, early 80s, late 80s or whenever, there was always passing. A driver could get a car from P12 into the points on merit and not have to depend on pit stop timing, crashes, mechanical failures etc. to advance through the field. F1 must do something about this. Alonso will need a miracle to make the points tomorrow at Singapore even though he will be light-years faster than the nine cars immediately in front of him on the grid.

Without passing there can be no "golden age" since the outcome is determined by things that happen before the first lap is even run. The excitement of 2008 (due to many wet races) will only mask this very serious problem that has plagued F1 since the narrow cars and grooved tires were introduced. Masking the issue will only delay the introduction of a solution. The Coulthard-Bernoldi incident at Monaco 2001 was a warning sign from heaven that something must be done but to date nothing has changed. I am crossing my fingers that 2009 with slicks and revised aero will be better.

[timbo]

In any age that calls itself "golden" whether it is the late 70s, early 80s, late 80s or whenever, there was always passing. A driver could get a car from P12 into the points on merit and not have to depend on pit stop timing, crashes, mechanical failures etc. to advance through the field.

Well, a good point but have you read recent note in the Autosport about 40 years since McLaren's first win. Ron Dennis commented on current and past state of F1?

"I don't have the facts, but one of the things you should do as we're talking about overtaking, is to read the Autosport article about the first race we won here in 1968," he explained.

"Read the article - we're all talking about how difficult it is to overtake - but the person on pole was five seconds ahead of the guy that was second. Five seconds a lap faster! The person in second was 30 seconds behind the guy that won. Three cars ran out of fuel.

"Read the article, look at the results, look at the qualifying positions and look at the lap times today. This is closer than F1 has ever been - this is truly competitive now. Yes, we need to address overtaking, but don't think that it was great in the past. Nothing will dissuade you from that more than reading the Autosport article."

I agree with him 100% (which is kinda rare occurance to me )

[gcdugas]

"Read the article - we're all talking about how difficult it is to overtake - but the person on pole was five seconds ahead of the guy that was second. Five seconds a lap faster! The person in second was 30 seconds behind the guy that won. Three cars ran out of fuel.

"Read the article, look at the results, look at the qualifying positions and look at the lap times today. This is closer than F1 has ever been - this is truly competitive now. Yes, we need to address overtaking, but don't think that it was great in the past. Nothing will dissuade you from that more than reading the Autosport article."

I agree with him 100% (which is kinda rare occurance to me )

Not for me! I want to see overtaking. We simply don't have it. Remember Coulthard/Bernoldi at Monaco 2001? Not much has changed. It simply isn't racing. Valencia this year? Come on and admit it, F1 doesn't have real passing anymore.

Just deal with the logic, the actual reasoning in my statement... 95% of the race outcome is determined before the first lap of the race is ever run. How is that a race?

Where do you think Alonso will place tomorrow? In any age that dares to think of itself as "golden", could such a thing be that a demonstrably faster car/driver combo has zero chance of consequential advancement during the race? I think not.

[myurr]

It used to be that drivers had to overtake back markers - so it follows that it must have been easier to overtake back then than it is now.

[timbo]

Just deal with the logic, the actual reasoning in my statement... 95% of the race outcome is determined before the first lap of the race is ever run. How is that a race?

I agree with your reasoning. I hope that next year we will see more on-track battles. But much of past unpredictability was because of bad reliability. And unpredictability alone does not make a good racing. We also have very low differentiated point system that makes winning unnesessary. But that factors do not reflect actual driver skill! "Golden age" of F1 - for sure not. "Golden age" of drivers - I think so.
Just look at all sports, World records from 10 years ago often won't place you in the finals today. I just thank God that we don't have doping scandals in F1 these days, but I think that all current drivers would shine in F1 10-20 years ago.

[Rodzilla]

the real golden age of debuting young drivers was 2000-2002

alonso
raikkonen
montoya
button
heidfeld
webber
mazzacane

ok, scrstch mazzacane from that list

[andartop]

Remember Coulthard/Bernoldi at Monaco 2001?

Oh, c'mon with that incident, I remember another year in Monaco when 2 specific red cars overtook a silver arrow driven by a specific 2-time WDC fair and square! I would sure love to see more overtaking in general but I think this year has not been that bad up to now (with possible exception of Valencia), plus with all the changes coming our way next year I think we can just wait and see what happens. You could mention another thousand incidents to make your point, but on that specific one I think a whole lot of drivers other than DC could have found a way past that Arrows...

[gcdugas]

Remember Coulthard/Bernoldi at Monaco 2001?

Oh, c'mon with that incident, I remember another year in Monaco when 2 specific red cars overtook a silver arrow driven by a specific 2-time WDC fair and square! I would sure love to see more overtaking in general but I think this year has not been that bad up to now (with possible exception of Valencia), plus with all the changes coming our way next year I think we can just wait and see what happens. You could mention another thousand incidents to make your point, but on that specific one I think a whole lot of drivers other than DC could have found a way past that Arrows...

This is a dishonest answer. I point out to a well known incident that illustrates the very real problem of overtaking and you simply dismiss it out of hand without addressing the issue. When Bernoldi finally pitted Coulthard was lapping three seconds faster. This simply isn't racing. And no age can be "golden" when it has only parades.

Right now before the race in Singapore tomorrow I want you to predict the number of actual on-track passes for position that happens after the first lap mayhem settles down. I say less than eight. And for a sport where you have 20 cars going for 60 laps to have only eight (or fewer) actual passes is just a sham. It isn't racing. Moto-GP, well that's racing. Several riders changing positions all the time. I would guess that there are well over one hundred actual passes for position during a Moto-GP race and several lead changes.

Its just like calling the US a democracy when 90% of the people think the gov't should change but incumbents get re-elected 90% of the time. Its all a sham and we ought to be honest enough to call it that. And the same with F1 "racing". Without overtaking it is just a parade.

[andartop]

This is a dishonest answer. I point out to a well known incident that illustrates the very real problem of overtaking and you simply dismiss it out of hand without addressing the issue. When Bernoldi finally pitted Coulthard was lapping three seconds faster. This simply isn't racing. And no age can be "golden" when it has only parades.

Right now before the race in Singapore tomorrow I want you to predict the number of actual on-track passes for position that happens after the first lap mayhem settles down. I say less than eight. And for a sport where you have 20 cars going for 60 laps to have only eight (or fewer) actual passes is just a sham. It isn't racing. Moto-GP, well that's racing. Several riders changing positions all the time. I would guess that there are well over one hundred actual passes for position during a Moto-GP race and several lead changes.

Its just like calling the US a democracy when 90% of the people think the gov't should change but incumbents get re-elected 90% of the time. Its all a sham and we ought to be honest enough to call it that. And the same with F1 "racing". Without overtaking it is just a parade.

I beg your pardon. First, the fact DC was lapping 3 seconds faster after Bernoldi pitted shows a lot indeed. I mentioned the Ferraris overtaking a McLaren on the same track (sorry but i don't remember which year it was), as an example to showcase that it is possible to overtake in Monaco even when the car in front is not that much slower than yours, and even if the car in front is driven by an acclaimed driver (2 times world champion). I think you would agree that a)Ferrari and McLaren have always been much closer in performance than Arrows could ever have hoped to be compared to a McLaren, b)Mikka Hakkinen was a much more experienced driver than Bernoldi. My whole point was that that particular incident had a lot to do with DC's performance. So, I do not think I dismissed that incident out of hand, I just do not think DC ever was or ever will be one of the drivers remembered for his overtaking capabilities, thus rendering that incident somewhat of an unfortunate choice to prove the point in question.
I absolutely agree that parading is not good for the sport, and I have expressed clearly my opinion before that I do not consider 2008 a golden age for F1. I do believe though that a lot of changes on the regulations from next year onwards might have a positive impact on the spectacle we all want to see (overtaking), so I consider it wise to wait and see what happens first, before I make any criticism.
Predicting in general is not my game, and I don't think would contribute anything to the discussion. I admit that I am not overly optimistic given the track layout, but again, I would like to wait and see what happens first, and then moan if I have to.
I am very fond of Moto GP, and especially over the last few years I have been trying to follow it as much as I can. I absolutely agree it is more spectacular, but then again WRC is also very spectacular and there are no overtakings at all! Or, there could be 234 overtakings for position in a race (that would be an oval race) and the race could still be boring (by being an oval race. just my opinion). My point here: there is no point in comparing different things, exactly because they are different.
As far as democracy in the US is concerned I 'm afraid the same $*it happens everywhere: everyone is always moaning, and most of the people moaning do not even bother to vote. The rest just vote as their fathers and grandfathers did before them. But do not worry, the revolution is coming!

[Rodzilla]

passing is overrated in my opinion

you want to have some passing, but if it becomes like nascar and you have people chopping and changing every lap then it becomes boring

you need the pass to be rare enough so that you treasure it when you see it

[donskar]

2008 has had a very high number of wet races which are often lotteries. I am not taking anything away from Vettel but the high number of wet races has fooled us into thinking we are seeing more variety than is really there. F1 is still largely a procession. In any age that calls itself "golden" whether it is the late 70s, early 80s, late 80s or whenever, there was always passing. A driver could get a car from P12 into the points on merit and not have to depend on pit stop timing, crashes, mechanical failures etc. to advance through the field. F1 must do something about this. Alonso will need a miracle to make the points tomorrow at Singapore even though he will be light-years faster than the nine cars immediately in front of him on the grid.

Without passing there can be no "golden age" since the outcome is determined by things that happen before the first lap is even run. The excitement of 2008 (due to many wet races) will only mask this very serious problem that has plagued F1 since the narrow cars and grooved tires were introduced. Masking the issue will only delay the introduction of a solution. The Coulthard-Bernoldi incident at Monaco 2001 was a warning sign from heaven that something must be done but to date nothing has changed. I am crossing my fingers that 2009 with slicks and revised aero will be better.

We've been over this before. Sigh. I hate to be negative on the eve of a race that has potential to be a bit different and also very important for the WDC. But I do regretfully agree completely with gcdugas.

And I totally disgree with the poster who likened F1 with passing to NASCAR. Next to F1, my great love used to be going to American dirt track races. Quarter-mile ovals with 20-30 "stockers" running fender-to-fender. Lots of passing and some wild tail-out drifting. My measure of a good race? At the end, the fans are exhausted from the strain, the excitement, the yelling, the jumping up and down. F1 has a very real appeal, but it is more an intellectual appeal, I suppose. Think how often the pole sitter leads into the first corner - and on to win the race. Not good, IMHO.

And lest there be any confusion, I'll stagger out of bed Sunday (my only day off) at 6 am to watch the race. Getting up at dawn to watch a night race? I hope my metabolism/psyche can take it!

[donskar]

passing is overrated in my opinion

you want to have some passing, but if it becomes like nascar and you have people chopping and changing every lap then it becomes boring

you need the pass to be rare enough so that you treasure it when you see it

F1 with lots of passing could be boring? Damn, I'll risk it! Bring on the passing!