Looks like the 40m euro budget cap is going ahead.

[James_graham]

williams = $160 mill = £100mill....

how does that surprise me...if anything if just proves me right

Do you not think it is strange that williams has the same budget to design a car as toro rosso does to run? and that Mclaren and Ferrari are spending less than £400m which is definatly not right as Ferrari themselves admit to spending 500m?. Therefore on the premise of teams spending lots more than publised it may indicate that published things in the papers are not right!

The williams engineer seems like a credibly source and to be honest I think that the budget to run, design a car, travel (paid up front but refunded) and all the marketing would amount to more than 100m for Williams. Not to mention they actually bought a hybrid company last year.

[PNSD]

check it again, pls

45mil in Euro = 60mil in $.

In Euros Toyota spent 320mil. So my mistake. Its the other way round, a 75% decrease rather than 200%? That sounds about right lol.

[ISLAMATRON]

check it again, pls

45mil in Euro = 60mil in $.

In Euros Toyota spent 320mil. So my mistake. Its the other way round, a 75% decrease rather than 200%? That sounds about right lol.

Wrong again, because the 45 mil Euro cap does not include driver costs, engine costs or hospitalit/marketing. Really for a top team like Ferrari it might be a %50 decrease at most, probly much less since they pay KIMI alone over $50 mil US a year

[timbo]

Really for a top team like Ferrari it might be a %50 decrease at most, probly much less since they pay KIMI alone over $50 mil US a year

Well, let's see. Say you earn 1000 coins. You pay 500 coins rent and bills, 300 for food and 200 for everything else. Let's say you're restricted to 750 (mere 25%). You still have to pay the rent though. That means you have only 250 left for food and whatever else you want.
Until cap excludes personnel salaries big teams are in trouble.

[ISLAMATRON]

Really for a top team like Ferrari it might be a %50 decrease at most, probly much less since they pay KIMI alone over $50 mil US a year

Well, let's see. Say you earn 1000 coins. You pay 500 coins rent and bills, 300 for food and 200 for everything else. Let's say you're restricted to 750 (mere 25%). You still have to pay the rent though. That means you have only 250 left for food and whatever else you want.
Until cap excludes personnel salaries big teams are in trouble.

BS, there is no reason Williams need 700 employees to be lower midfield, the teams are bloated, you dont need 1000 people to put 2 cars on the grid for less than 20 races? I dont think any of the NASCAR superteams (4 to 6 cars) have even 500 employees for 36 races... as it stands now if you cut back you slide down the field and into bankrupcy, because the Honda's of the world dont cut back they just leave altogether

[timbo]

BS, there is no reason Williams need 700 employees to be lower midfield, the teams are bloated, you dont need 1000 people to put 2 cars on the grid for less than 20 races? I dont think any of the NASCAR superteams (4 to 6 cars) have even 500 employees for 36 races... as it stands now if you cut back you slide down the field and into bankrupcy, because the Honda's of the world dont cut back they just leave altogether

So, do you imply that all those people just walk around, chat, spend time on facebook or whatever?
Apparently you do NEED that much people if you can afford it. F1 teams have accommodated to that. Of course you can limit number of employees but it takes time. And money.

[ISLAMATRON]

BS, there is no reason Williams need 700 employees to be lower midfield, the teams are bloated, you dont need 1000 people to put 2 cars on the grid for less than 20 races? I dont think any of the NASCAR superteams (4 to 6 cars) have even 500 employees for 36 races... as it stands now if you cut back you slide down the field and into bankrupcy, because the Honda's of the world dont cut back they just leave altogether

So, do you imply that all those people just walk around, chat, spend time on facebook or whatever?
Apparently you do NEED that much people if you can afford it. F1 teams have accommodated to that. Of course you can limit number of employees but it takes time. And money.

BUT they cant afford it... Williams had to take an advance from BE and they burned thru Millions of their own reserve cash before that. And what do they have over the last several years to show for it, and they were getting a free deal on engines, what if they werent?

F1 is simply too expensive, for absolutely no reason, FW said himself that in 97(they won the championship that year) they didnt spend not even what the cap would be for next year 45 mil Euro.

Williams are in F1 to race, whereas Toyota is there for marketing, when the costs/benefit are too high for them they just leave whereas Williams would go bankrupt.

F1 teams have not accomodated to that... that is why we have the least amount of cars on the grid than in any other time in history. Limiting employees does not take time or money, look how all the teams got rid of their testing teams this year after banning testing( that was a FOTA idea not FIA)

[FW17]

What were the greater freedom granted under 2010 budget cap?

In hindsight looks like the protest by FOTA was the all wrong. After the initial shock, things would have settled down and we would have had a much closer, financially sensible F1.

[bhall II]

As I understand it, the regulations would have essentially been unrestricted. While that's a wonderfully utopian idea, budget caps are, without exception, unenforceable.

If anyone ever figures out how to legitimately administer a budget cap among competitive, transnational corporations, that person should be worshiped as a deity, for he or she must also have the ability to walk on water.

[FW17]

you seem to be one of those guys who believe 200 to 300 million euros are being spent by top 4 teams. Do you by any chance have a general breakup of how this money is being spent on car development?

[bhall II]

I'm not sure what you mean by my "beliefs" about team spending, but it's pretty well known that they spend gobs of money on F1 in search of a competitive advantage.

[FW17]

TOTAL BUDGET
Top F1 team: $470 million
THE CAR
Top F1 team: $125 million
THE ENGINES
Top F1 team: $130 million
TESTING
Top F1 team: $15 million
DRIVERS
Top F1 team: $47 million;
ENTRY FEE
Top F1 team: $3.3 million
HOSPITALITY
Top F1 team: $13 million;

I sometime wonder how $348 million becomes $470 million

Max Mosley's budget plan was only to include car and testing. The engine development by manufacturers was always outside, so was driver salaries and hospitality.

[bhall II]

TOTAL BUDGET
Top F1 team: $470 million
THE CAR
Top F1 team: $125 million
THE ENGINES
Top F1 team: $130 million
TESTING
Top F1 team: $15 million
DRIVERS
Top F1 team: $47 million;
ENTRY FEE
Top F1 team: $3.3 million
HOSPITALITY
Top F1 team: $13 million;
OTHER (capital investments like CFD, wind tunnel maintenance/upgrades, etc, etc)
Top F1 team: $136.7 million

I sometime wonder how $348 million becomes $470 million

Max Mosley's budget plan was only to include car and testing. The engine development by manufacturers was always outside, so was driver salaries and hospitality.

It's Christian Sylt; so, you have to take it with a grain of salt.

The issue isn't with the amount of money teams spend, though, or how it's allocated; it's about the cold reality that any budget cap that attempts to govern the expenditures of multinational corporations can be cozened with relative impunity, regardless of how it's applied. Teams will simply employ the same perfectly legal tactics companies use to avoid paying taxes.

[FW17]

TOTAL BUDGET
Top F1 team: $470 million
THE CAR
Top F1 team: $125 million
THE ENGINES
Top F1 team: $130 million
TESTING
Top F1 team: $15 million
DRIVERS
Top F1 team: $47 million;
ENTRY FEE
Top F1 team: $3.3 million
HOSPITALITY
Top F1 team: $13 million;
OTHER (capital investments like CFD, wind tunnel maintenance/upgrades, etc, etc)
Top F1 team: $136.7 million

I sometime wonder how $348 million becomes $470 million

Max Mosley's budget plan was only to include car and testing. The engine development by manufacturers was always outside, so was driver salaries and hospitality.

It's Christian Sylt; so, you have to take it with a grain of salt.

The issue isn't with the amount of money teams spend, though, or how it's allocated; it's about the cold reality that any budget cap that attempts to govern the expenditures of multinational corporations can be cozened with relative impunity, regardless of how it's applied. Teams will simply employ the same perfectly legal tactics companies use to avoid paying taxes.

Here is a better picture as to where the money goes as of 2003. The same hold good as things have not changed much.

A new wind tunnel would cost a max of $40-60 million, no one is spending $130 on capital infrastructure every year.

Policing a budget etc are opinions people have on, but I want to understand when a team says they spend $400 currently, I say it is a bluff, they are probably spending a quarter of that.

Total $2,141,100,000
$443,800,000 Ferrari $353,300,000 Williams $304,600,000 McLaren $290,400,000 Toyota $225,100,000 BAR $206,800,000 Renault $119,500,000 Sauber $ 79,200,000 Jordan $ 78,800,000 Jaguar $ 39,600,000 Minardi
Engine budgets $931,000,000
$185,000,000 Williams
$175,000,000 Ferrari
$150,000,000 Toyota
$140,000,000 McLaren
$110,000,000 Renault
$105,000,000 BAR
$ 24,000,000 Sauber
$ 18,000,000 Jordan
$ 15,000,000 Minardi
$ 9,000,000 Jaguar

Operating the cars at tests $260,800,000
$88,000,000 Ferrari
$48,000,000 Williams
$29,100,000 McLaren
$24,700,000 Toyota
$22,000,000 BAR
$19,800,000 Sauber
$14,600,000 Renault
$ 7,500,000 Jaguar
$ 3,700,000 Jordan
$ 3,400,000 Minardi

Team salaries $194,000,000
$41,400,000 Ferrari
$32,300,000 Toyota
$30,300,000 McLaren
$24,000,000 Williams
$16,500,000 Renault
$12,800,000 BAR
$12,700,000 Sauber
$10,600,000 Jaguar
$ 8,800,000 Jordan
$ 5,300,000 Minardi

Operating the cars at races $187,300,000
$28,500,000 Ferrari
$22,500,000 Toyota
$20,800,000 Williams
$19,200,000 McLaren
$19,000,000 Renault
$18,200,000 Sauber
$17,600,000 BAR
$17,000,000 Jaguar
$16,000,000 Jordan
$ 8,500,000 Minardi

Research and development $173,000,000
$35,000,000 McLaren
$21,500,000 Toyota
$20,300,000 Williams
$20,000,000 Ferrari
$16,900,000 Renault
$16,500,000 BAR
$15,400,000 Jaguar
$14,600,000 Sauber
$12,600,000 Jordan
$ 200,000 Minardi

Driver salaries $132,000,000
$44,000,000 Ferrari
$24,000,000 BAR
$20,000,000 Williams
$13,500,000 McLaren
$ 8,000,000 Jordan
$ 7,500,000 Toyota
$ 6,800,000 Sauber
$ 6,200,000 Renault
$ 1,500,000 Jaguar
$ 500,000 Minardi

Wind tunnel operating costs $93,600,000
$15,100,000 Ferrari
$12,900,000 McLaren
$12,200,000 Williams
$11,600,000 Toyota
$10,400,000 Sauber
$10,100,000 BAR
$ 8,000,000 Renault
$ 5,500,000 Jaguar
$ 4,500,000 Jordan
$ 3,300,000 Minardi

Travel and accommodation $86,600,000
$18,000,000 Ferrari
$13,000,000 McLaren
$12,000,000 Toyota
$ 9,300,000 Williams
$ 7,900,000 BAR
$ 7,500,000 Renault
$ 6,800,000 Sauber
$ 5,300,000 Jaguar
$ 4,500,000 Jordan
$ 2,300,000 Minardi

Corporate entertaining and catering $62,850,000
$12,200,000 Williams
$ 9,700,000 Ferrari
$ 8,900,000 McLaren
$ 7,200,000 BAR
$ 6,700,000 Renault
$ 6,300,000 Toyota
$ 5,600,000 Jaguar
$ 4,300,000 Sauber
$ 1,600,000 Jordan
$ 350,000 Minardi

Car manufacturing costs $19,250,000
$4,100,000 Ferrari
$2,700,000 McLaren
$2,000,000 Toyota
$2,000,000 BAR
$1,900,000 Sauber
$1,500,000 Jordan
$1,500,000 Williams
$1,400,000 Renault
$1,400,000 Jaguar
$ 750,000 Minardi

[bhall II]

I can't say I follow your logic. So, tell me why a team would exaggerate its budget at any time, and how an invulnerable budget cap can be made possible.