F1 Design For Setup & Driver Characteristics

[Giblet]

I would just like to hear one snippet from any team saying they design cars for drivers. Everything in the design and modelling processes and scale testing process is the team trying to make the car as fast as possible sans driver, sans driving for the most part. The teams have enough trouble trying to make the car basically quick, just in the tunnel, before they can think about microscopic tweaks for drivers.

It's not even until the car is complete and crash tested does the driver even bother molding his seat, metaphorically. Other than really tall drivers, there seems to be very little evidence teams design for drivers.

If these were microscopic items ,I don´t see the reason why a well established driver like fisichella should suddenly from being on race winning pace to fall back suddenly
to something like .5to 1 second behind behind his teammate.It just doesn´t stack up in a field which is only separated by around 2.5 seconds.
I remember the Development of Bennetton in the Schumacher days was extremely converging towards Schumachers preferences and feedback to a point were a guy of Herberts calibre just was not able to drive on the same level as MSin that machine.Also Berger and alesi had big crashes trying to wrestle a time outoff this MS inspired direction.It took Bennetton two years to come back to a win in hockenheim with berger ...food for thought.

The microscopic tweaks I am speaking about are microscopic in terms of the whole car. You design the car, design a window of setup, and then the driver and his engineers tweak it. There is not a 2 foot range of ride height and 50 degrees of camber allowed. A few mils here, a few quarters of a degree there.

Being quick in an F1 car is about being integrated in such. Fisi had no test time and never got a chance to integrate properly. Setting up the Ferrari was entirely different from the FiF1. The engine also had a completely different profile and range of drivability.

The Ferrari engine is not as good as the Merc, so you have to know it even better than the engine he is used to.

In short, there is nothing but valid excuses why Fisi was unable to match Kimi's pace.

[ESPImperium]

I mean how is driver style quantified as input into designing the CHASSIS? (not the shocks, not the weight dist, not the springs, not the brakes and all the auxiliary things that the driver can change) Can the supporters of this myth please give examples of how you design the dynamics of the CHASSIS to suit another driver.

I mean, Hey the downforce and the suspension can be screwed up to hell and the car handles like a rodeo bull and only the best drivers can handle it. But how is that a result of the car being designed for one driver? ( Heikki fan: "Hamilton's input screwed up the MP4-24!! :twisted: )

Even if I put my self in a position to support the myth it still doesn't make sense, because when you try to be empathetic by asking about driver styles all they will say "oohh, he likes understeer/over steer and he is hard on the brakes! " I just don't follow because these things can be easily adjusted! Transient behaviour can be adjusted too.

The only exception is when the car just SUCKS or the car is just too much for the driver so no one can drive it.

Ill give you one example, there are many diffrent brake materials, most drivers use carbon brakes. But there are many diffrent brake compounds and when put with a different type of material in the caliper it may give one driver more inital bite that he likes, but to another it may make the car more snappy and more oversteery. Take Monza 08 for example, we have Vettel on pole and the big guys no where, quite literally. The diffrence was brakes, the STRs used Brembos, the rest took Carobone Industries, and the diffrence was the fact that the STR could brake more progressivly, and more in control than the rest. Kovvy and Webber were the only 2 in the feild that could even get close to the pace of Vettel in the race as they took a diffrent brake compound in the CE brake range, i belive they used Alonsos signature discs there. The only other person in the race that was fast, Hamilton, had his brakes ground down a little in Parc Ferme, whitch added to his performance in the race.

So, if you want a quantifyable design input, this can be dialled in like this. Also the DDDs of 09 were design inputs, whitch suited one driving style at the start of the season, but when others were developed, they got designed arround the driver sets they had at the time. Ferarri and Red Bull had the best B Spec car on their DDD design that suited both their drivers, in the most part.

Oversteer and understeer can be designed into a car. It all depends on what the designer wants their particular driver set at that present time. Thus Red Bull is currently strongest at the present moment as they have continuity in line up and designer and design team as a whole.

[mcdenife]

Ill give you one example, there are many diffrent brake materials, most drivers use carbon brakes. But there are many diffrent brake compounds and when put with a different type of material in the caliper it may give one driver more inital bite that he likes, but to another it may make the car more snappy and more oversteery. Take Monza 08 for example, we have Vettel on pole and the big guys no where, quite literally. The diffrence was brakes, the STRs used Brembos, the rest took Carobone Industries, and the diffrence was the fact that the STR could brake more progressivly, and more in control than the rest. Kovvy and Webber were the only 2 in the feild that could even get close to the pace of Vettel in the race as they took a diffrent brake compound in the CE brake range, i belive they used Alonsos signature discs there. The only other person in the race that was fast, Hamilton, had his brakes ground down a little in Parc Ferme, whitch added to his performance in the race.

These are not design attributes but setup or driver preferences.

Also the DDDs of 09 were design inputs, whitch suited one driving style at the start of the season, but when others were developed, they got designed arround the driver sets they had at the time.

DDD in themselves are not and cannot be driver (or style) specific when you think about what DDD actually does.

[mike]

lets face it all of these man are great driver its the combination that bring them wins and championships, a simple he is faster is simply not good enough

Yes it is. Driving F1 is a sport, and in all sports some competitors are better than others. Even at the very top level. Why does Usain Bolt win all the time? Because he's faster. Why does Tiger Woods win all the time? Because he's better. I know this is F1 Technical, but driver skill does matter in F1 - possibly more so than most of us think. Drivers like Schumacher, Räikkönen or Alonso are simply faster/better than drivers like Herbert, Badoer or Fisichella. I'd say Schumacher/Räikkönen/Alonso would beat Herbert/Badoer/Fisichella even if the car was built for (and set up to perfectly suit) the driving style of Herbert/Badoer/Fisichella.

im more searching the "why" in is he faster tiger woods is faster because hes got good technique and what are these techniques???

usain bolt is faster because he has got long leg but also has the ability to accelerate "faster" than long leg runners of the line
yet short legged runners always accelerate faster than he does

again its a combination of things. im really searching for the combination of what makes he and she faster or better technically than others.

sure driving a car is about feedback and response, subconsciously yes, but trainable and learnable and i'd like to think all F1 drivers are gifted enough to be able to do this.