Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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CHT
CHT
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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FoxHound wrote:Fernando should stick it out for 2014, see what Allison brings to the table.
They have their turbo v6 engines and energy recovery systems in house which could also help the team beating red bull.
How much of an advantage if any is anyone's guess, as chatillon work so closely with Red bull.

The more you look at it, the more the Alonso story is designed for kimi to get a hurry up and agree to the switch.

2015 could be the year Alonso rides a taurine tinged bovine.
I actually think that Ferrari might struggle with the 1.6L turbo engine plant next years and they could struggle to match their rival engine development pace because Ferrari road cars doesnt run of small engine.

My guess is that Ferrari might even quit F1 all together and divert their attention to other racing series.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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CHT wrote: I actually think that Ferrari might struggle with the 1.6L turbo engine plant next years and they could struggle to match their rival engine development pace because Ferrari road cars doesnt run of small engine.
Not that I agree that road car engine development will have any effect on an F1 engine but Ferrari have experience with turbo V6's via Maserati.
Not the engineer at Force India

CHT
CHT
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 05:24

Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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Tim.Wright wrote:
CHT wrote: I actually think that Ferrari might struggle with the 1.6L turbo engine plant next years and they could struggle to match their rival engine development pace because Ferrari road cars doesnt run of small engine.
Not that I agree that road car engine development will have any effect on an F1 engine but Ferrari have experience with turbo V6's via Maserati.
The problem I see with Ferrari is that 1.6L turbo engines are totally irrelevant to their road car program at the moment and I dont foresee that to to change anytime soon.

On the other hand, Ferrari rival Merc, Honda and Renault will be more willing to aggressively fund their engine development because of possible technological transfer from F1 to their road car.

And with Ferrari's interest in returning to Le Man LMP1 class in 2015 could that be a sign that Ferrari are putting their resources into something that is more relevant.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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Do you seriously think Ferrari will reduce their devlopment agressiveness because they don't build a 1.6L V6 on their road cars? Thats mental. I'm not even going to bother arguing that point if you really believe that.

I've mentioned this in another thread, but the new powertrains are going to transfer precisely zero technology to any company's road cars. The restrictive rules and the FIA freeze after a few years will ensure this.

Ferrari don't like the new engines because they see a reduced overlap in F1 to road cars for marketing purposes. Mercedes and Renault love these new engines because they see an increased overlap in F1 to road cars for marketing purposes.

Marketing purposes are where the road relevance starts and stops.

Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault will all develop these new engines in the same way (to win races) as they have done for any engine in the past. To think their respective road car divisions will have any influence on their race performances is just stupid.
Not the engineer at Force India

CHT
CHT
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 05:24

Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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Tim.Wright wrote:Do you seriously think Ferrari will reduce their devlopment agressiveness because they don't build a 1.6L V6 on their road cars? Thats mental. I'm not even going to bother arguing that point if you really believe that.

I've mentioned this in another thread, but the new powertrains are going to transfer precisely zero technology to any company's road cars. The restrictive rules and the FIA freeze after a few years will ensure this.

Ferrari don't like the new engines because they see a reduced overlap in F1 to road cars for marketing purposes. Mercedes and Renault love these new engines because they see an increased overlap in F1 to road cars for marketing purposes.

Marketing purposes are where the road relevance starts and stops.

Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault will all develop these new engines in the same way (to win races) as they have done for any engine in the past. To think their respective road car divisions will have any influence on their race performances is just stupid.
The main reason why Honda has decided to return to F1 as engine supplier is because 1.6L turbo engine is more relevant to Honda's road car ambition. And for that reason companies like Honda, Merc and Renault/Nissan will have a better head start due to their know how in producing fuel efficient compact size turbo engine as compared to Ferrari who's specialization is not in fuel efficiency engine, but big V8 and V12 engines for their super car.

Below is a quote from Honda about their return into F1.
“The new F1 regulations with their significant environmental focus will inspire even greater development of our own advanced technologies and this is central to our participation in F1.”
So if you ask me, I think Ferrari runs a big risk of falling back in 2014 if they are unable to get their engine right.
Renault and Merc have already disclosed some photos and sound of their 2014 engine, but there are still nothing from Ferrari about how their 1.6L engine is going to look or sound like. Perhaps this is an indication that Ferrari could be lagging behind in terms of their engine development.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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There are ample statements on this issue from respected engineers like Ulrich Baretzky. If the pinnacle series of motor sport align their rules with the needs of the auto manufacturers it allows them to create huge overlaps between new product development and racing development. This kind of synergy has existed partially in LMP1 for Peugeot and Audi for years, but wasn't sufficiently supported in F1 for a long time. The old turbo age in F1 was probably a better example for a time when it was better. The Renault and BMW turbo engines shared roots and commonality with the companies road products.

There are less prominent features in the 2014 engines that are helpful for all auto makers. The combustion process at 500 bar injection, the electric compounding were already mentioned. But there could be so much more if the philosophy of Baretzky was adopted by the PTB in F1. It is the legacy of the FOCA cartel and their power over F1 via the series of concord agreements that has driven manufacturers out of GP racing. The chassis constructors ultimately have the say and they will prevent power train developments to become a source of competitive advantage in a significant way.

Until that unbalance is addressed F1 will suffer. Ferrari can lament it, as Montezemolo usually does once or twice per year. But that will not help as long as Ferrari continues to stab any initiative like the GPMA in the back. The manufacturers can only hope for increased cooperation with the FiA in order to change the rule making powers in F1. Aero needs to be homologated to stop spiraling costs there. Then increasing funds can go back into drive train development.

There is also an urgent need to change the distribution of prize money to keep smaller teams alive. Again that requires some change in the power structures. Only the FiA can do something to put this right. CVC and Ecclestone are deliberately tweaking the commercial conditions in such a way that small teams have very little chance to survive. Ferrari have some political influence in F1. The question is are they willing to use it in a way that helps all auto makers or will they continue to serve only their own narrow interests? History suggests probably the second. Time will tell.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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CHT wrote:
Tim.Wright wrote:Do you seriously think Ferrari will reduce their devlopment agressiveness because they don't build a 1.6L V6 on their road cars? Thats mental. I'm not even going to bother arguing that point if you really believe that.

I've mentioned this in another thread, but the new powertrains are going to transfer precisely zero technology to any company's road cars. The restrictive rules and the FIA freeze after a few years will ensure this.

Ferrari don't like the new engines because they see a reduced overlap in F1 to road cars for marketing purposes. Mercedes and Renault love these new engines because they see an increased overlap in F1 to road cars for marketing purposes.

Marketing purposes are where the road relevance starts and stops.

Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault will all develop these new engines in the same way (to win races) as they have done for any engine in the past. To think their respective road car divisions will have any influence on their race performances is just stupid.
The main reason why Honda has decided to return to F1 as engine supplier is because 1.6L turbo engine is more relevant to Honda's road car ambition. And for that reason companies like Honda, Merc and Renault/Nissan will have a better head start due to their know how in producing fuel efficient compact size turbo engine as compared to Ferrari who's specialization is not in fuel efficiency engine, but big V8 and V12 engines for their super car.

Below is a quote from Honda about their return into F1.
“The new F1 regulations with their significant environmental focus will inspire even greater development of our own advanced technologies and this is central to our participation in F1.”
So if you ask me, I think Ferrari runs a big risk of falling back in 2014 if they are unable to get their engine right.
Renault and Merc have already disclosed some photos and sound of their 2014 engine, but there are still nothing from Ferrari about how their 1.6L engine is going to look or sound like. Perhaps this is an indication that Ferrari could be lagging behind in terms of their engine development.
If you want to believe this then fine. As an engineer I read all this as pure marketing whitewash. Especially in F1 where there is no possibility to develop any new technologies which are not forced upon by the rules. Please tell me how is anything road relevant going to be developed with the rules mandating basically one solution and then freezing it after a few years??

As WB has mentioned, sportscar racing have a better attitude BUT they have spoiled it by adding a balance of power to artificially equalise the different technologies. At least there is a possibility there to actually develop something.

Manufacturers want a symbolic link between F1 and their road cars but none of them would be stupid enough to think there will be any actual technology transfer. It seems that many people around here are though.
Not the engineer at Force India

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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WhiteBlue wrote:[...]
It is the legacy of the FOCA cartel and their power over F1 via the series of concord agreements that has driven manufacturers out of GP racing. The chassis constructors ultimately have the say and they will prevent power train developments to become a source of competitive advantage in a significant way.

Until that unbalance is addressed F1 will suffer. Ferrari can lament it, as Montezemolo usually does once or twice per year. But that will not help as long as Ferrari continues to stab any initiative like the GPMA in the back. The manufacturers can only hope for increased cooperation with the FiA in order to change the rule making powers in F1. Aero needs to be homologated to stop spiraling costs there. Then increasing funds can go back into drive train development.

[...]
Toyota left the sport in 2009 because its net revenues had fallen nearly 22% from the year before. Honda left the sport in 2009 because its net income had fallen 77% from the year before. BMW left the sport in 2009 because its net profit had fallen nearly 50% from the year before. Renault sold the majority of its team to Genii Capital in 2010 because its net income had fallen a whopping 612% in 2009. These were purely economic decisions brought on by the collapse of the world economy.

Automakers have a long history of using F1 as a marketing vehicle when conditions are suitable. When conditions change, they leave, but not before their expenditures drive up the cost to compete for the other teams. (see: F1 ca. 1999-2009)

Like it or not, the long-term health of F1 rests solely in the hands of those teams, or "chassis constructors," who have a long history within the sport. That means teams like Ferrari, McLaren, and Williams should absolutely be given priority treatment over the marketing interests of automakers, because they're the only teams virtually assured to stick around.

In my view, Formula One loses its way when it tries to be anything other than a racing series.

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Kiril Varbanov
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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With no bad things in mind or insults taken, I'm posting to remind everyone that we are supposed to discuss the Scuderia F1 Team.
And to stay on topic: the team has tweeted: "The foundations of the new Scuderia". I wasn't sure whether this is the wind tunnel or not, so I asked the media team with no reply yet.

Image

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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http://www.1worldglobalgifts.com/italyg ... quette.htm
Gifts to Avoid:
- knives or any other type of sharp object--such items may be interpreted to suggest the severing of a friendship or other close bond
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

shelly
shelly
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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Kiril Varbanov wrote:With no bad things in mind or insults taken, I'm posting to remind everyone that we are supposed to discuss the Scuderia F1 Team.
And to stay on topic: the team has tweeted: "The foundations of the new Scuderia". I wasn't sure whether this is the wind tunnel or not, so I asked the media team with no reply yet.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BQuyQO2CMAArib7.jpg:large
This should be the new ges in fiorano. the wind tunnel is on the other side of the road, at the far end of the road cars complex
twitter: @armchair_aero

f1316
f1316
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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Seems to me that Ferrari have lots of road car based reasons to do well with these engines: they''re building larger cars like saloons etc. which could easily run on a v6 turbo; not to mention that they're part of the Fiat group, so anything learnt could be applied to Maserati or Alfa (or even fiat). Actually when looked at as a Fiat investment, they have more to gain than most.

Not to mention that the original flat 4s were changed to v6s on Ferrari's insistence, so they obviously thought they could gain something from it.

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Hail22
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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So the internal "aero" investigation is over with the simple headline of " We don't know exactly what the problem is"

Article / source:

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/194331/1/f ... em_is.html
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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f1316 wrote:Not to mention that the original flat 4s were changed to v6s on Ferrari's insistence, so they obviously thought they could gain something from it.
They were not flat 4s. They were I4s.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Kiril Varbanov
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari 2013

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Hail22 wrote:So the internal "aero" investigation is over with the simple headline of " We don't know exactly what the problem is"

Article / source:

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/194331/1/f ... em_is.html
Don't read too much from sources like this, until they are proven media. This specific site has been known for ages to spit fire all around, just for the sake of making traffic. The message from Domenicalli is an old one, and very twisted.
I would personally refrain from speculations on the next installment of the drama "Wind tunnel issues" until I see something solid on ferrari.com. With sensible explanation, of course. The bad thing (for Ferrari) is that F1 clients / viewers / fans are mostly very well educated on technical matters, and you can't just BS them with some generic explanation.