Mercedes W12

[zibby43]

To add on to what dans79 pointed out above, it sure would be nice for Ted to explain why losing floor area and floor sealing tools makes it better for the team that absolutely needs to rely sealing the rear of the floor to make the concept work.

Everyone relies on it.

As I mentioned previously, while Mercedes lost some surface area at the rear, they still have more floor area relative to shorter-wheelbase cars. After the reg changes, Merc still has a net advantage on how long the floor can work the airflow on the way to the diffuser.

The difference compared to other cars is fairly negligable. It isn't the 20cm longer they were in 2017.

Here is what we know so far, in terms of both general principles, and what we've been able to observe the past 3 days:

• In general, high-rake cars have more peak rear downforce potential due to the artificially adding volume to the diffuser

Not necessarily true since they run higher from the ground, and thus less ground effect.

The '21 regulation changes have seemed to penalize the low rake approach

Because?

The idea that a solution that will have less exposure to tyre squirt will face a larger impact from the loss of those slots that manage tyre squirt is highly illogical.

Mercedes look to be attempting to run higher rake at the rear

And like always, there is no certainty of such condition. People read waaaaaaayyyy too much into rake.

The W12 rear end has been inconsistent and unstable at times on all 3 testing days[/list]

Could very easily be mechanical, or a multiple of things.

1) Not necessarily? That’s why it’s called a general principle lol.

2) Except it’s not just about the loss of the slots, is it?

It’s loss of floor surface area, rear brake duct fins, the length of the diffuser strakes, etc.

And a multitude of things need to change both upstream and downstream to compensate for the sum of those changes.

4) We’re all just speculating, but judging by how the rear end of the car is breaking away and behaving unpredictably (similar to the RB16), in a year that the aero regs were changed, smacks of an aero balance problem, and not a mechanical one.

Furthermore, it seems the gusting winds exacerbated the problem in Bahrain. Which, again, doesn’t speak to mechanical problems.

Per Mark Hughes, who spoke to Mercedes’ engineers, they’re having no trouble with switching on the tires.

Is something stalling with the aero?

Feel free to add what you think the issues are. Would love to hear it. But everything I’ve observed, and everything we’ve heard from Merc, points toward aero.

[PlatinumZealot]

I will be really dissapointed if this is the actual race 1-spec w12 since they have been working on this %100 since august last year

Yup. For this reason I know Mercedes is blisteringly quick! It's just that the car is unstable. Unstable because it's a rocketship!
I will not be surprised If "we" aren't half a second ahead in Q3.

[PlatinumZealot]

Here is what we know so far, in terms of both general principles, and what we've been able to observe the past 3 days:

• In general, high-rake cars have more peak rear downforce potential due to the artificially adding volume to the diffuser
  
  Mercedes have been able to get away with a low-rake philosophy by utilizing greater floor surface area (the underfloor area is vitally critical here); while this sacrifices peak downforce potential, they've had the tools to provide a platform that is very stable and consistent
  
  The '21 regulation changes have seemed to penalize the low rake approach
  
  Mercedes look to be attempting to run higher rake at the rear
  
  The W12 rear end has been inconsistent and unstable at times on all 3 testing days

Mercedes had no floor slots at the start of 2014 and the car was on rails. So not fair to put it down to that.

Aston has low rake. Probaby lower than Mercedes right now and Vettel said its "nice driving"..

Could be a number of thing Mercedes is pushing to the limits that are causing the instability. Just have to wait and see exactly what. Perhaps their Lasagna thingies, as Vjay(?) pointed out is an attempt to create a virtually larger floor.. Something is on the edge, rather than being fundamentally wrong is my guess.

[zibby43]

Mercedes had no floor slots at the start of 2014 and the car was on rails. So not fair to put it down to that.

Aston has low rake. Probaby lower than Mercedes right now and Vettel said its "nice driving"..

Could be a number of thing Mercedes is pushing to the limits that are causing the instability. Just have to wait and see exactly what. Perhaps their Lasagna thingies, as Vjay(?) pointed out is an attempt to create a virtually larger floor.. Something is on the edge, rather than being fundamentally wrong is my guess.

Yeah, and to clarify, I’m not talking about just the removal of the slots, but the sum of changes, which include a significant chunk of the rear floor being omitted. The regs in ‘14 were a lot less aero-dependent, and Merc’s PU advantage was enormous.

How has the Aston looked? I haven't watched it a tremendous amount, but I’ve heard is that it looked as equally cumbersome to drive as the W12, and that the AT and the RB looked the best of the field in terms of stability, change of direction, etc.

Of course no one here knows for certain what the issue is, but from what the Merc engineers reported to Hughes after Day 3, neither do they.

EDIT: Apparently, Sam Collins did an interview with Shov on F1TV and Shov confirmed that they have an aero imbalance that they don't yet understand.

Was listening to a podcast where someone in the industry reported that it looked like the Merc was having flow detachment problems at the rear of the car.

Perhaps a new nose/FW is incoming?

[ryaan2904]

To add on to what dans79 pointed out above, it sure would be nice for Ted to explain why losing floor area and floor sealing tools makes it better for the team that absolutely needs to rely sealing the rear of the floor to make the concept work.

Everyone relies on it.

As I mentioned previously, while Mercedes lost some surface area at the rear, they still have more floor area relative to shorter-wheelbase cars. After the reg changes, Merc still has a net advantage on how long the floor can work the airflow on the way to the diffuser.

The difference compared to other cars is fairly negligable. It isn't the 20cm longer they were in 2017.

Here is what we know so far, in terms of both general principles, and what we've been able to observe the past 3 days:

• In general, high-rake cars have more peak rear downforce potential due to the artificially adding volume to the diffuser

Not necessarily true since they run higher from the ground, and thus less ground effect.

The '21 regulation changes have seemed to penalize the low rake approach

Because?

The idea that a solution that will have less exposure to tyre squirt will face a larger impact from the loss of those slots that manage tyre squirt is highly illogical.

Mercedes look to be attempting to run higher rake at the rear

And like always, there is no certainty of such condition. People read waaaaaaayyyy too much into rake.

The W12 rear end has been inconsistent and unstable at times on all 3 testing days[/list]

Could very easily be mechanical, or a multiple of things.

You literally solved all of mercedes problems by the power of assumptions

[carisi2k]

Perhaps a new nose/FW is incoming?

I'm not sure that is possible in 2021. With the regs the way they are that would require tokens they haven't got unless they haven't actually spent any tokens yet. Also it would be a bit much to do this in less then 2 weeks and with no testing to see if it will actually work. If they are unsure as to why it is happening then this would require them moving resources away from the 2022 car and are they willing to do this?

[MKlaus]

Perhaps a new nose/FW is incoming?

i have the same hunch.

[zibby43]

I'm not sure that is possible in 2021. With the regs the way they are that would require tokens they haven't got unless they haven't actually spent any tokens yet. Also it would be a bit much to do this in less then 2 weeks and with no testing to see if it will actually work. If they are unsure as to why it is happening then this would require them moving resources away from the 2022 car and are they willing to do this?

Great point. I can think of this 2 ways: 1) No one knows for sure where Merc have spent their tokens yet, yet James Allison said it would be apparent in time. Do they have something already developed, and have yet to put it on the car? Was the running in Bahrain a baseline of sorts? I'd put this in the "unlikely, but possible category."

2) There is clearly scope to play with the front wing. I think there are 40 components on the "homologated" list, including, but not limited to: outboard front and rear suspension, steering column, gear ratios, driveshafts/other ancillary components, monocoque, front floor structure, impact structures, plank assembly, rear wing adjuster, gearbox/associated parameters, inboard suspension, brakes, and auxiliary oil tanks.

Perhaps a new nose/FW is incoming?

i have the same hunch.

If a subtle but pesky aero imbalance is the culprit, it's a very good place to start!

[ryaan2904]

Intresting article by motorsport.com highlighting the problem with mercedes and AMR rear ends
They think that Merc has taken their concepts to such an extreme that the gearbox is overheating and failing

[Just_a_fan]

Intresting article by motorsport.com highlighting the problem with mercedes and AMR rear ends
They think that Merc has taken their concepts to such an extreme that the gearbox is overheating and failing

Interesting idea but didn't Mercedes's gearbox problem occur in the first few laps - a gear shift issue - and then they didn't have a gearbox issue thereafter. So it's odd if they had an overheating problem in the first few laps but then nothing later on during multiple laps during the hottest parts of the day. That suggest it wasn't an overheating problem for that car.

[Jozsusz]

Intresting article by motorsport.com highlighting the problem with mercedes and AMR rear ends
They think that Merc has taken their concepts to such an extreme that the gearbox is overheating and failing

If this is true, then Merc is in a big trouble.
They can solve the instability problem, I believe them but this one with the transmission is gonna be tricky.

[ryaan2904]

Is that new transmission casing homologated yet? I remember the rules said that you can de-grade back to last year version but then you've lost you opportunity and aren't allowed to upgrade once again.
Though I'm 100% sure the problem isn't that big and mercs will probably find a way around it and win in bahrain

[NathanOlder]

I think there are 40 components on the "homologated" list, including, but not limited to: outboard front and rear suspension, steering column, gear ratios, driveshafts/other ancillary components, monocoque, front floor structure, impact structures, plank assembly, rear wing adjuster, gearbox/associated parameters, inboard suspension, brakes, and auxiliary oil tanks.

Don't suppose you have a list or link to a list of all the homologated parts ?

[aral]

"Please discuss ONLY technical items of this car, and refrain from speculation.

General discussion about the team, its drivers and performance can be posted in the team thread."

I am re-posting the first post on this thread. Please discuss performance etc on the team thread and keep this thread for pure technical items only

[El Scorchio]

So is it still a mystery where they've spent their tokens, and whether those changed parts were on the car during the testing?

It's rather intriguing. There's a lot of 'knowing winks' and 'it'll be obvious', which seems to suggest no.