Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

[donskar]

That the Stewards disqualified Hamilton for fibbing and misleading them is very silly too, a driver or team should never be in a position to mislead the Stewards anyhow.

Uh-huh. I've been waiting for this one. So you are blaming the Stewards for McLaren lying to them? And the police cause people to commit crimes? And Ferrari was to blame for allowing themselved to be robbed?

I never said I was blaming the Stewards for McLaren lying, only people within McLaren can do that. There is no need for you to be a smart ass, I guess you are another typical Ferrari fan, because of your immediate jump at the oportunity to bring up Stepney-gate.

Seriously now mate, the Stewards have a wealth of resources to refur to when these type of situations arise, they are paid to do a job and that job involes investigating incidents and applying penalties accordingly. They should have already listened to the radio transmission recordings, and viewed all footage available to them before the 'sit-down' with Lewis even happened. They left themselves open to be misled, and on top of that, they based their penalty to Jarno on inconclusive evidence... and these are they guys that said Lewis gained an advantage by cutting the chicane at Spa-Francorchamps?

You mention Ferrari allowed themselves to be robbed, just remember, it was one of their own empoyees that robbed them. You seem to forget that F1 teams are not made up of engineers who are robots, programed to be 100% loyal and ethical, but instead engineers who are human, humans who want more money sometimes, who want better working conditions sometimes, who want a new boss because there current one is a bit of a cunt to them, who are willing to lie, and do un-ethical things to get these things. Ferrari are an F1 team, they know the classification of their information, data, all that stuff, the fact that their own employee leaked that information so easily and so much, would suggest to a reasonable man that they were not doing enough at that time to protect there information, from these type of threats.

Back on topic I read that a steward commented that the matter can be taken further with McLaren, seems a bit silly to me. Enough is enough, its gone as far as it needs to go, Hamilton has been DQ'd, McLaren made to look like assholes again, and the stewards have proven (yet again) that they can more or less do what ever they want, screw up as bad as they want, and get away with it because no one in the correct position to speak out against them has the balls to speak out against them.

I bow to your eloquence: “There is no need for you to be a smart ass“ which is exceeded only by your faultless logic: “Ferrari . . . were not doing enough at that time to protect there information, from these type of threats.”

Excuse me while I go double-check my locks. Wouldn’t want to cause myself to be robbed.

And back on topic: FIA's rules may very well be absurd and illogical. But they ARE the rules. They must be followed (else there is chaos) or overturned. I hope that SOMEDAY, FOCA or SOMEONE will rise up and throw the rascals out.

[gcdugas]

Just read your own words again.

I am trying to refocus our attention. We, the F1 fans of the world, have been diverted from the real issue. We have fallen for the ploy. We are endlessly debating, did he lie, didn't he.... etc. All that is completely moot. It is a gigantic smokescreen. The FIA is 100% responsible for the whole mess. Just stipulate that Ham lied... OK, so what.

That's not ok.

I'm not okay with the World Champion that acts like a schoolboy, that lied to the stewards when he told by the team (i.e. Martin & Co.) to do so. And then he lied again to his fans to scapegoat Ryan. That's not f***ing OK, man! We don't watch F1 for Prancing Arse Mosley, mr. E or the stewards. They simply provide the service as well or as badly as they do. And that's beyond the point, I don't care if the stewards could do a bit better when the real heroes are bloody rotten. Stewards can be replaced twice a day and nobody would care or notice, F1 World Champions can't.

When I said "That's OK" I was not excusing it as an offense. I was setting it aside logically because it doesn't matter whether LH said "yes" or "no" to the question if he let JT through. The FIA were still obligated to conduct a thorough investigation and corroborate and verify all statements. Follow the logic. I am saying that the duty to investigate does not end when one party makes an assertion. The investigators must still do their job.

Radio being available to them for the first time? Well I think it always was. I remember that the whole Hungarian 2007 mess involved investigating radio messages. And they always had access to the in-car footage from JT's car to see LH pulling offline and slowing to a crawl. And what of the stewards talking to the Race Director? Charlie knew what both teams said to him on their email/IM system.

I do not excuse LH's lying at all but let's keep things in perspective. "Movable Aero Devices"..... a blatant and transparent lie put forth by those who are crucifying LH. And it was a naked attempt to alter the championship and screw Renault and Alonso.

I am glad you are so perfect that you have never lied. Perhaps I should nominate you for sainthood. Yes it appears inescapable the LH lied. So what do you want? Banished for the season? Why not banished for 2010 as well? Banished for life and his superlicense revoked forever. Hung by his toenails over a vat of boiling oil! Name your recommended punishment and then tell me what your recommended punishment will be for the stewards? For Max and his lies.... Enough bravado and self-righteous indignation... let's hear what you think fits the crime and leave it at that. But don't leave out the other guilty parties, nor let them escape your indignation.

[mikhak]

@gcdugas: These other guilty parties you refer to i presume are the stewards / FIA but what was the offence they committed. Their mistake was that they believed when questioning the reigning world champion about something that happened on the track that he would respond truthfully. Some say this is naiive and comparisons can be made with murder cases or whatever in court but this is F1 and when a steward asked a driver a direct question like the ones asked of hamilton, i would expect an honest answer.

Compare the stewards mistake of taking a driver on his word to hamilton/mclarens mistake of deliberately misleading the stewards so that they could gain points at the expense of trulli! i think the stewards offence becomes insignificant. and i dont understand how you can relate this to the FIA being out to get mclaren because by believing hamilton and not doing any further investigations it gave hamilton 3rd place. and your assertion is incorrect that it didnt matter what hamilton said. of course it did, if he had said yes the team told me to let trulli passed then there would not have been any lying and the matter would not need to have been further investigated by the stewards because the truth wouldve been out in the open there and then at the meeting. This wouldve been more advantageous for all concerned.

I love the openess of information of this season so far where we can hear the radio conversations, stewards findings are explained, etc. its really great and yet there are still people who try to look for a back story, some more piece to fit into their puzzle of how F1 is all controlled to make life tough for lewis hamilton. I thought that would stop when we have this new season of openness but apparently some people are so stuck in their mindset that the facts matter little.

The only part of this which would require further discussion is what mclaren as a team knew. surely the team wouldve had a debrief on monday and talked extensively about all the events of the australian gp. is it possible that the stewards meeting of dave ryan and lewis hamilton wasnt discussed at all? i really cant understand mclarens logic, on the radio transmission they were so worried about doing "it by the book" not to get into trouble with the stewards and then to go and lie at the meeting when contradictory evidence was in the public domain already and then continue to lie about it up until thursday. really strange.

[vall]

@gcdugas: These other guilty parties you refer to i presume are the stewards / FIA but what was the offence they committed. Their mistake was that they believed when questioning the reigning world champion about something that happened on the track that he would respond truthfully. Some say this is naiive and comparisons can be made with murder cases or whatever in court but this is F1 and when a steward asked a driver a direct question like the ones asked of hamilton, i would expect an honest answer.

Compare the stewards mistake of taking a driver on his word to hamilton/mclarens mistake of deliberately misleading the stewards so that they could gain points at the expense of trulli! i think the stewards offence becomes insignificant. and i dont understand how you can relate this to the FIA being out to get mclaren because by believing hamilton and not doing any further investigations it gave hamilton 3rd place. and your assertion is incorrect that it didnt matter what hamilton said. of course it did, if he had said yes the team told me to let trulli passed then there would not have been any lying and the matter would not need to have been further investigated by the stewards because the truth wouldve been out in the open there and then at the meeting. This wouldve been more advantageous for all concerned.

I love the openess of information of this season so far where we can hear the radio conversations, stewards findings are explained, etc. its really great and yet there are still people who try to look for a back story, some more piece to fit into their puzzle of how F1 is all controlled to make life tough for lewis hamilton. I thought that would stop when we have this new season of openness but apparently some people are so stuck in their mindset that the facts matter little.

The only part of this which would require further discussion is what mclaren as a team knew. surely the team wouldve had a debrief on monday and talked extensively about all the events of the australian gp. is it possible that the stewards meeting of dave ryan and lewis hamilton wasnt discussed at all? i really cant understand mclarens logic, on the radio transmission they were so worried about doing "it by the book" not to get into trouble with the stewards and then to go and lie at the meeting when contradictory evidence was in the public domain already and then continue to lie about it up until thursday. really strange.

I totally agree! =D> It was trying to tell these things but LH blinded fans wouldn't listen.

[Rob W]

The FIA were still obligated to conduct a thorough investigation and corroborate and verify all statements. Follow the logic. I am saying that the duty to investigate does not end when one party makes an assertion. The investigators must still do their job.

I agree. Nicely put. We have come to this situation now simply because the stewards didn't do a thorough job - either because they didn't see the potential issues or they wanted to do it all quickly. Either way it shows some serious failings or incompetence in their procedures and mandate in terms of processing issues with the aim to end up with the most equitable sporting outcome.

In this instance they have got that part wrong. They should have sanctioned Hamilton somehow but instead chose to fudge previous race results which, in my mind, is just utter nonsense which gives fans every reason to yawn yet again at their actions.

[mikhak]

We have come to this situation now simply because the stewards didn't do a thorough job

well thats just not true. this situation arises simply from mclaren lying. the fact that the stewards did not recognise mclaren were lying until later just delayed the whole process. the root of the problem is mclaren lied. why are you focusing so much on the stewards actions.

[gcdugas]

@gcdugas: These other guilty parties you refer to i presume are the stewards / FIA but what was the offence they committed. Their mistake was that they believed when questioning the reigning world champion about something that happened on the track that he would respond truthfully. Some say this is naiive and comparisons can be made with murder cases or whatever in court but this is F1 and when a steward asked a driver a direct question like the ones asked of hamilton, i would expect an honest answer.

Compare the stewards mistake of taking a driver on his word to hamilton/mclarens mistake of deliberately misleading the stewards so that they could gain points at the expense of trulli! i think the stewards offence becomes insignificant. and i dont understand how you can relate this to the FIA being out to get mclaren because by believing hamilton and not doing any further investigations it gave hamilton 3rd place. and your assertion is incorrect that it didnt matter what hamilton said. of course it did, if he had said yes the team told me to let trulli passed then there would not have been any lying and the matter would not need to have been further investigated by the stewards because the truth wouldve been out in the open there and then at the meeting. This wouldve been more advantageous for all concerned.

I love the openess of information of this season so far where we can hear the radio conversations, stewards findings are explained, etc. its really great and yet there are still people who try to look for a back story, some more piece to fit into their puzzle of how F1 is all controlled to make life tough for lewis hamilton. I thought that would stop when we have this new season of openness but apparently some people are so stuck in their mindset that the facts matter little.

The only part of this which would require further discussion is what mclaren as a team knew. surely the team wouldve had a debrief on monday and talked extensively about all the events of the australian gp. is it possible that the stewards meeting of dave ryan and lewis hamilton wasnt discussed at all? i really cant understand mclarens logic, on the radio transmission they were so worried about doing "it by the book" not to get into trouble with the stewards and then to go and lie at the meeting when contradictory evidence was in the public domain already and then continue to lie about it up until thursday. really strange.

Wow, I can't believe that you are so one sided. Before they ruled last Sunday the stewards asked LH if he let him past and LH said "no". They also asked JT why he went by and he said LH let him by. So you are saying that they should have concluded their investigation and trusted one driver over another without further evidence. Then, if you are consistent, why didn't the stewards throw the book at JT for lying to the stewards when he said LH let him by?

And somehow I am wrong to say that the stewards didn't do their job? And somehow I am a "blinded LH fan" because I am pointing out that the stewards made a disgraceful, incompetent and hasty ruling?

If lying to the stewards is such a horrible offense, then why weren't you calling for all sorts of penalties to be levied against Toyota and JT last Sunday when he told the stewards that LH let him by? Where was all this high and mighty indignation then? Be consistent mate.

The stewards are incompetent boobs and that is the only conclusion we can clearly see. How can they not investigate more when they had two conflicting statements from both drivers? And how can they punish LH for lying to them when they failed to punish JT for what would have been the same thing if LH didn't let him by?

Please answer these very simple questions. Thank you. Most of all I want to know why you weren't calling for Toyota's and JT's crucifixion with the same indignation you have against LH and Mac. And don't even try to say that the FIA should have believed a Champion over an average driver. Face it, they just didn't do their job and royally screwed things up. Now that LH has been made the fall guy, the FIA has diverted out eyes from just how incompetent they are and you have fallen for it. Blame-shifting is the oldest trick in the book going all the way back to Eve.

[mikhak]

you accuse me of being one-sided yet you are so caught up analysing the stewards that you are "logically setting aside" the whole hamilton/mclaren lying part of this story so that we can all focus on the stewards and how bad they are. and you cant compare what trulli did and what hamilton did. trulli believed that hamilton slowed down to let him passed, this was his opinion. the stewards did not share this opinion at the time and hence trulli was demoted. at no time did trulli intentionally try to deceive the stewards in their meetings. if there was recordings of trulli telling his team "i am going to pass hamilton because i deserve that place" and trulli went into the meeting and then said "oh hamilton slowed to let me past". then that would be a similar situation to what hamilton did and then i would be calling for sanctions against trulli. but you cant say that every time the stewards and drivers disagree where there is a difference of opinion then the losing driver should be heavily penalised for lying. its not the same. it was a difference in opinion in the first stewards meeting and a difference of facts that brought about hamilton being recalled in malaysia.
I can understand though if the stewards had all the information available, radio transcripts, after-race interview of hamilton then yes the question of "did you recieve instruction from the team to let trulli past?" would most likely never have been asked because the answer wouldve been obvious! but the fact that mclaren lied when they were asked. is that not the bigger issue??

[mikhak]

oh and it wasnt just hamiltons story versus trullis story and the stweards decided which one they like best to believe. they also had video footage aswell to make their decision which must not have shown enough evidence that hamilton deliberately slowed to let trulli past.

[gcdugas]

oh and it wasnt just hamiltons story versus trullis story and the stweards decided which one they like best to believe. they also had video footage aswell to make their decision which must not have shown enough evidence that hamilton deliberately slowed to let trulli past.

Ladies and gentlemen may I introduce the forum to Mr. Max Mosley AKA mikhak

[mikhak]

Really?...thats the best counter-argument you can come up with? pity, because i thought we were having a nice discussion up until then. amazingly we actually agree on most points and the only thing we're arguing about now is which is more important, mclaren lying or stewards messing up.

btw max mosley is not this omnipresent being that is out to get you! he is just 1 person and please i dont know why you brought him up, it wasnt really necessary but i suppose not much surprise that your most active topic was the "Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?" thread.

[dave34m]

Early on the stewards said that the comments LH made to the media conflicked with the evidence he had given them.
Im not sure why they took LH word over trullis at the stewards meeting but the reports in the media suggested that something was wrong with the whole thing.
Im a big McLaren fan and a New Zealander and I dont like what has happened here at all.

[Chaparral]

I'm just amazed at how Hamilton has been allowed to respond to this with the seperate press conference and Anthony ranting on about how Lewis' public perception has been tarnished blah blah blah (I guess its all about protecting his bankability)

All I have to say is he's over 18 eligible to vote and drink and he has a mind and conscience of his own knows right from wrong - he could have said no I dont want to lie - he didnt AND he went along with it until they were caught out - gutless little turd to be honest. You may be a very gifted driver old son but you better harden up in the life sector real quick.

As for the stewards - that could be fixed very easily - take a full time set of stewards with you to each race that are specifically trained to handle mechanical and race issues ala the FIA guidelines (i.e. professionals) - dont use the local stewards - just the marshalling guys/gals etc - I believe you would find you would have a much more consistent system be they good or bad rulings.

[ringo]

Hamilton's lie only made him more human. His public perception has been polished in fact, now he doesn't seem like an annoying goody 2 shoes. I want him to win WDC even more now that he lost those 6 points, the hunger has intensified.
He had to learn about the real world at some point in time. This only makes him a better driver and improves his judgment.
Lets see what he can pull off this weekend. As a fan i got over it, its in the past, we all lied before.

[xpensive]

I think the local Stewards are a minor problem, at the end of the day they will just do what they are told by Charlie Whiting or Max anyway.
Sometimes they confuse the political signals of the day, who's the bad guy and who's not, that's all.