[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Marti_EF3
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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JordanMugen
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Marti_EF3 wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 10:29
That's maybe the reason to the rumours involving Mugen and RB spending on the PU. Less costs for Honda, RB have their "own" engine and can continue to spend more and keep part of the staff. Both parts happy with it
How much would it cost Red Bull for this approach, compared to the 24m EUR total for customer Renault units for both teams? :?:

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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JordanMugen wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 02:44
Marti_EF3 wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 10:29
That's maybe the reason to the rumours involving Mugen and RB spending on the PU. Less costs for Honda, RB have their "own" engine and can continue to spend more and keep part of the staff. Both parts happy with it
How much would it cost Red Bull for this approach, compared to the 24m EUR total for customer Renault units for both teams? :?:
Depends how much Honda's engine program costs, let's assume that Honda leaves Red Bull with a fully functional and updated 2022 unit as they depart at the end of 2021. From there, assuming Honda will leave RB with their IP, and Honda is willing to manufacture the block at a price, then seeing as the engine regulations will be essentially frozen from 2023 onwards. If Honda gives Red Bull that much leeway, then I could see them making it work for ~160m Euros per year for two years. That's all of course dependent on the lubrication and fuel supplier involvement, I suppose they could justify leveraging some of the cost for more prominent branding on the car? The fuel and lubricants of the engine are a big part of the formula, and the equipment that the big petrochems have to R&D with is beyond reach of any F1 team.

Their engine program would have to be tied up with the fuel supplier.

The reason an engine program is so expensive is partly the man hours, and the manufacturing time. You are trialing a combustion concept on a single cylinder, that alone takes a team of engineers to validate, CFD department to model, a team to correlate the models to experiments. That's all tied up with fuel and lubrication engineers, they may have three or four blends to try. You have to run all these concepts in parallel, then you have to manufacture the engine, and you are constantly altering the architecture of the engine. You have to constantly iterate on the crankshaft, on the pistons, on the rings, on the gears, you have to because you have to improve reliability of everything.

Designing more efficiency into such a restrictive formula is an iterative process, you're finding tiny gains which cost millions of Euros each. The more you spend the more gains you find, and that's all to do with the talent of your team, which again top talent isn't cheap. These people are worked hard, night and day, their efforts are constant, the near burnout comes with associated overtime pay. Day and night shifts needed to keep progress uninterrupted, and you have to maintain that level of investment because you know your competitors are as well, and they happen to be a small step ahead of you.

It is expensive for a very good reason, however it is doable, if Red Bull's budget is ~320 million Euros, and the budget cap will limit them to 150, then there's a 170 + whatever initial costs they save from having Honda leave them with a competitive 2022 power unit which they can use for the rest of the year. That along with IP and Honda willing to manufacture the engine blocks for them while RB + partners handle the production costs.

If their 2022 power unit is competitive and all 4 manufacturers reach some sort of parity by then, I'm sure the powers that be would be willing to freeze the engines entirely. Then they could afford to stay competitive.

In turn AT gives Honda a chance to have a Japanese Honda driver in the soon to be sister team.
Saishū kōnā

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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JordanMugen wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 02:44
Marti_EF3 wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 10:29
That's maybe the reason to the rumours involving Mugen and RB spending on the PU. Less costs for Honda, RB have their "own" engine and can continue to spend more and keep part of the staff. Both parts happy with it
How much would it cost Red Bull for this approach, compared to the 24m EUR total for customer Renault units for both teams? :?:
Think your talking easy 200 million euros startup then 150 million a year. Unless Honda just gives them everything.

Think RBR got to want to get into making PUs for the long run, otherwise none of it make sense. By long run I mean the rest of this PU regs and next (post 2026).

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hasika
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Tanabe's interview(Thursday&Saturday),just pick up parts of the interview

Thursday before the race weekend
https://www.as-web.jp/f1/632693?all
·As the trackside members,we are very close to the teams and drivers.So i always thought about the contact things,Honda's contract with the teams was only until 2021,so i was always wondering when the final conclusion would come out.Then it finally came out.I have a very good relationship with the two teams of RB family,so their races came to my mind(when i heard it).Its a shame that iam leaving from their place.However,we still have 7 races and next season,so the we will keep fighting and that will not change.We dont want to leave a regret.
·Its the third time for me to leave the F1 world.The announcement was made in Monza at the first time,then off-season in 2009 altough i was appointed as the LPL(development chief)of the 2009 car.Then this time the announcement was made a year before the contract was ended.Each situation is different, but it was always a painful feeling to be told that the project I had thrown at my best was over. It's the same this time as well.


Saturday after Qualifying
https://www.as-web.jp/f1/633515
·I think Honda was a little bit lose in deployment compared to the rivals,not only Mercedes. Honda tried various ways to use MGU-H, but I think it is a weak area compared to rivals.
·The new spec PU which will be used in next season focus in reducing our weaknesses and extending our strengths.There is a balance between the ICE and the ERS system,so comprehensive judgment is necessary.

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ispano6
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Image

Verstappen, Albon and Tsunoda will be participating in a special Gran Turismo Sport virtual Suzuka time attack event that fans can also participate on Oct 14th.

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/633182?all

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Marti_EF3
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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But, if Honda continues to help them with a minor budget, and the rest for RB? They said they want to continue helping the teams. You're talking about RB assuming all costs, but maybe it's not this way...

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Big Tea
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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diffuser wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 05:14
JordanMugen wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 02:44
Marti_EF3 wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 10:29
That's maybe the reason to the rumours involving Mugen and RB spending on the PU. Less costs for Honda, RB have their "own" engine and can continue to spend more and keep part of the staff. Both parts happy with it
How much would it cost Red Bull for this approach, compared to the 24m EUR total for customer Renault units for both teams? :?:
Think your talking easy 200 million euros startup then 150 million a year. Unless Honda just gives them everything.

Think RBR got to want to get into making PUs for the long run, otherwise none of it make sense. By long run I mean the rest of this PU regs and next (post 2026).
Once they can build engines, they can build engines, and sell them.
More important for Red Bull is continuity of supply. No more wondering what the supplier is thinking or compromising on 'Get it in the car now or develop reliability to protect our name'.

Also no one else to blame if things go wrong, so get the house in order and improve reliability of car and engine and 'peripherals' that may be a sort of no mans land right now.

Red Bull have their nose in lots of motorsport so as I said, if they build engines, they build engines, maybe for their own series even. Think of the media coverage
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

aleshondas
aleshondas
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Reason for Albon dnf?

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nzjrs
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Big Tea wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 12:31
diffuser wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 05:14
JordanMugen wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 02:44


How much would it cost Red Bull for this approach, compared to the 24m EUR total for customer Renault units for both teams? :?:
Think your talking easy 200 million euros startup then 150 million a year. Unless Honda just gives them everything.

Think RBR got to want to get into making PUs for the long run, otherwise none of it make sense. By long run I mean the rest of this PU regs and next (post 2026).
Once they can build engines, they can build engines, and sell them.
More important for Red Bull is continuity of supply. No more wondering what the supplier is thinking or compromising on 'Get it in the car now or develop reliability to protect our name'.

Also no one else to blame if things go wrong, so get the house in order and improve reliability of car and engine and 'peripherals' that may be a sort of no mans land right now.

Red Bull have their nose in lots of motorsport so as I said, if they build engines, they build engines, maybe for their own series even. Think of the media coverage
Any idea if / when F2 could switch to a hybrid PU? Maybe RB/Mugen could get into the supply business?

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Juzh
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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aleshondas wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 15:03
Reason for Albon dnf?
On sky they said it was a PU problem that was manifesting itself.

Jaisonas
Jaisonas
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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aleshondas wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 15:03
Reason for Albon dnf?
"""""""""pu issue""""""""""""
Hey Alex since you rocked all the sensors loose with all those crashes and lockups, its time to retire the car

GhostF1
GhostF1
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Jaisonas wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 16:13
aleshondas wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 15:03
Reason for Albon dnf?
"""""""""pu issue""""""""""""
Hey Alex since you rocked all the sensors loose with all those crashes and lockups, its time to retire the car
Alex asked why he was being called in... I'm almost sure the "PU" issue is a ploy to save mileage on the engine because he was nowhere after ruining so many sets of tyres early on.

Safety car at the end of the race could of made it interesting though. Hindsight.

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Big Tea
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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I have often defended Alix, but it is getting hard now
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Wouter
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Back-to-back podiums for @Max33Verstappen

His 8️⃣ th of the season #EifelGP

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Last edited by Wouter on 11 Oct 2020, 17:10, edited 1 time in total.
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