General Honda F1 Topic

[GhostF1]

Not really. It is all still Honda. If Honda states F1 is not helping them to on the road to fuel cells and EV's, neither does Indy. Maybe the excuse is that finances are separated, but it still garantuees a double message. Not a very strong message.
If the really wanted to show the world they were going to go green, they would have dumped both. But Honda does not care about going green. They just needed money to stay in the car business. That is why F1 was dumped.

Not really. The US, after Asia, is Honda's biggest market. They have a great reputation there and people appreciate their efforts and participation.

They are also extremely successful in IndyCar, but more importantly, it is much more commercially viable for them as (if I'm not mistaken) they get paid for supplying engines.

Not to mention the fact that in the US gasoline is quite cheap and I see most people being reluctant to switch to electric cars for a very long time.

Honda were one of the very first manufacturers who dreamt and pushed towards becoming carbon neutral - way before many other manufacturers, so saying they don't care about going green is a big, fat and unfair lie.

As far as I know, E85 still uses 15% gasoline. How many street car Hondas are using Ethanol? As far as I know, not a single Honda supports ethanol based fuels. So yeah, they dreamt of it...

You said it yourself, the US is their second biggest market. Money talks. And since no American wants a fuel that is more expensive and less powerful, using ethanol in Indy hasn't changed much did it?

IndyCar is a different story because it's much much more viable. Yes money is important and Honda admit they want to put their money and R&D away from F1 into Fuel cell tech. Their return on investment in F1 is miniscule, actually I'm sure it's all at a total monetary loss with the benefits being to the engineering staff, the technology push learned and the exposure. They are paid nothing for their engines.

Their spend on the IC engine program is a fraction what the F1 engine program costs and as mentioned, Honda are paid top $$$ for their IC engines, they're race winning and in huge demand especially after this year where its performance and reliability is off the charts compared the Chevy at the moment. They're exposure and profits in IC makes the whole program completely viable.

[Lock2nl]

True. But all this doesn't make Honda green. Let allone the reason for leaving is a green future.

To be honoust, if you look at the production of 'greenish' Honda road cars, such as hybrids, they are late. And they are expensive without me raising my eyebrows if efficiency is concerned. They know they are late and really, they need to come up with full electric models soon.
It was a foolish mistake to join F1 after so many years that others were doing catch up of the Merc invented concept... They should have used that money more wisely.

[PlatinumZealot]

No automaker is green. Let's cut this crap.

[Lock2nl]

No automaker is green. Let's cut this crap.

Hé, nobody is talking crap.
And someone (not me) stated Honda dreamed of being 'carbon neutral'. I just responded to this argument.

[PlatinumZealot]

No automaker is green. Let's cut this crap.

Hé, nobody is talking crap.
And someone (not me) stated Honda dreamed of being 'carbon neutral'. I just responded to this argument.

Wasn't directed at you specifically. I am in agreement.

[914hald]

Ross Brawn Will buy engine department and start Brawn GP engines and keep it in Red Bull.
Then we all know what will happen afterwards

[Revs84]

No automaker is green. Let's cut this crap.

Hé, nobody is talking crap.
And someone (not me) stated Honda dreamed of being 'carbon neutral'. I just responded to this argument.

Wasn't directed at you specifically. I am in agreement.

I never said Honda is 100% green, or that it pretends to be, so please stop denigrating others for no reason at all.

I still stand by my claims that Honda is one of the 'greenest' automakers and I'll even expand on that - Honda invests heavily in reducing their carbon footprint, researching new green technology and in reducing emissions, and has also been a pioneer in several related research areas.

Happy to provide proof if you insist otherwise.

[PlatinumZealot]

I agree.
But no automaker can fool me into saying they are green. Their aim is to sell millions of cars. When you multiply even reduced CO2 and NOx emmisions from raw material to end of product life, by the sales... It's still a monster of pollution.

I am not a tree hugger. Far from it, I'm a petrol head. But I won't be fooled.

[Wouter]

TOYOHARU TANABE
TECHNICAL DIRECTOR, HONDA F1

Last Friday, Honda announced that we would be ending our Formula 1 programme at the end of the 2021 season. Everyone involved in Honda’s F1 project is very sad that our time in the sport is coming to an end. We have enjoyed excellent partnerships with Aston Martin Red Bull Racing and Scuderia AlphaTauri and I am proud of what we have achieved with both teams so far in terms of wins and podium finishes. For the moment, our work continues exactly as before and we will be doing our utmost to secure more wins and good results with both teams. We have also assured the FIA and Formula 1 of our intention to fully meet our responsibilities, not just towards our two teams but also to the sport in general, all the way through to the end of the 2021 season. As for this weekend, the Nurburgring has a long and interesting Grand Prix history. At an altitude of around 600 metres in the Eifel mountains, we can expect bad weather and very low ambient and track temperatures. The forecast certainly indicates that this will be the coldest race of the year so far. Formula 1 has not raced at the ‘Ring since 2013, therefore this will be the first time for the hybrid power units. We have prepared thoroughly in terms of simulation work, however, it will be important to make the most of our time in Friday free practice to generate real data to help us set up the PUs as well as possible for the rest of the weekend.

RACE SETUP

This will be our first race weekend since the news broke last Friday that Honda is pulling out of Formula 1 at the end of 2021. “End of 2021” is the key phrase there, because for now, it’s absolutely business as usual for the rest of this season and all of 2021. That’s over 20 more opportunities to aim for the top step of the podium with our two teams. And we plan to make the most of it! The 2020 calendar has definitely thrown up some interesting venues, some we have never raced on before like Mugello and Portimao and others that fall into the category of “old favourites” such as Imola and this weekend’s venue, the Nurburgring. One of the most historic track names in the sport, this Nurburgring, officially called the GP Strecke, lives in the shadow of the famous Nordschleife, or “Green Hell” as it was known. Formula 1 has never raced here in the current hybrid era, the last F1 race having taken place in 2013 and maybe it’s a good omen for this weekend that the winning team that day was Red Bull Racing. The Nurburgring has held events counting towards the F1 world championship that were not the German GP, with the 1984 race entitled European GP, a name that would be used a few more times to squeeze a second German race onto the calendar and it even hosted a Luxembourg GP in 1997 and ’98. Formula 1 has only visited the ‘Ring in October twice before this weekend and naturally all the talk is about the weather in this mountainous region. For the moment, we can rule out snow, but a bitterly cold and possibly wet weekend looks on the cards.

https://en.hondaracingf1.com/races/2020 ... ?tab=setup

[ispano6]

True. But all this doesn't make Honda green. Let allone the reason for leaving is a green future.

To be honoust, if you look at the production of 'greenish' Honda road cars, such as hybrids, they are late. And they are expensive without me raising my eyebrows if efficiency is concerned. They know they are late and really, they need to come up with full electric models soon.
It was a foolish mistake to join F1 after so many years that others were doing catch up of the Merc invented concept... They should have used that money more wisely.

To be honest, I don't think many understand, to Honda, BEV is a stopgap solution to electrification. They have more advanced research in FCEV than any other automotive company and holds patents that others can't infringe. I know a thing or two about this through my connections and it's really the bureaucracy and lack of adoption and the slowness of society to phase into the hydrogen future. My father who is a physicist has told me hydrogen IS the future. BEVs will play a role but as a hybrid solution to storing energy produced by hydrogen. A sea wave of electrification is coming, even with aeronautics. Electric scramjets are here.
Cities will be powered by hydrogen. Honda has a calculated bet on hydrogen fuel cell. They are not behind, they are already planning to the next 50 to 100years. Earth Dreams had never ended, it's still on course. And things are starting to happen.

Like I mentioned before EV batteries are about to become mainstream thanks to Japan's discovery of cobalt on volcanic seabed floors. And Saudia Arabia and Japan will usher in a new era of energy. These countries aren't playing around.
Do you think Aramco is the title sponsor for F1 for no reason? Their logo is blue and green, for blue hydrogen and green hydrogen.

A pilot study conducted by the Institute of Energy Economics Japan and Saudi Aramco in partnership with Saudi Basic Industries Corp has seen the world's first shipment of blue ammonia from Saudi Arabia to Japan to be used in power generation. Blue ammonia is a feedstock for blue hydrogen.

https://www.researchandmarkets.com/issu ... =cari18prd

Petrol was a cheap and easy energy source for combustion and is on its last leg. Of course auto companies will prolong its use since so much investment went into manufacturing engines and governments and oil producers have relied on auto sales to keep the world economy moving. But as we saw when Covid lock downs first happened and no cars were on the road, air quality massively improved, the Himalayas were visible from places 100 miles away for the first time in decades. Humanity is getting their priorities straight and moving away from fossil fuel burning is one of them. If F1 turned to fuel cell tech, Honda would be interested without a doubt.

[tangodjango]

True. But all this doesn't make Honda green. Let allone the reason for leaving is a green future.

To be honoust, if you look at the production of 'greenish' Honda road cars, such as hybrids, they are late. And they are expensive without me raising my eyebrows if efficiency is concerned. They know they are late and really, they need to come up with full electric models soon.
It was a foolish mistake to join F1 after so many years that others were doing catch up of the Merc invented concept... They should have used that money more wisely.

To be honest, I don't think many understand, to Honda, BEV is a stopgap solution to electrification. They have more advanced research in FCEV than any other automotive company and holds patents that others can't infringe. I know a thing or two about this through my connections and it's really the bureaucracy and lack of adoption and the slowness of society to phase into the hydrogen future. My father who is a physicist has told me hydrogen IS the future. BEVs will play a role but as a hybrid solution to storing energy produced by hydrogen. A sea wave of electrification is coming, even with aeronautics. Electric scramjets are here.
Cities will be powered by hydrogen. Honda has a calculated bet on hydrogen fuel cell. They are not behind, they are already planning to the next 50 to 100years. Earth Dreams had never ended, it's still on course. And things are starting to happen.

Like I mentioned before EV batteries are about to become mainstream thanks to Japan's discovery of cobalt on volcanic seabed floors. And Saudia Arabia and Japan will usher in a new era of energy. These countries aren't playing around.
Do you think Aramco is the title sponsor for F1 for no reason? Their logo is blue and green, for blue hydrogen and green hydrogen.

A pilot study conducted by the Institute of Energy Economics Japan and Saudi Aramco in partnership with Saudi Basic Industries Corp has seen the world's first shipment of blue ammonia from Saudi Arabia to Japan to be used in power generation. Blue ammonia is a feedstock for blue hydrogen.

https://www.researchandmarkets.com/issu ... =cari18prd

Petrol was a cheap and easy energy source for combustion and is on its last leg. Of course auto companies will prolong its use since so much investment went into manufacturing engines and governments and oil producers have relied on auto sales to keep the world economy moving. But as we saw when Covid lock downs first happened and no cars were on the road, air quality massively improved, the Himalayas were visible from places 100 miles away for the first time in decades. Humanity is getting their priorities straight and moving away from fossil fuel burning is one of them. If F1 turned to fuel cell tech, Honda would be interested without a doubt.

Are there any plans to have a technological or common standards alliance with Toyota since in the West the perception is Toyota has the most advanced fuel cell technologies at the moment (not taking into account patents etc).

[ispano6]

Are there any plans to have a technological or common standards alliance with Toyota since in the West the perception is Toyota has the most advanced fuel cell technologies at the moment (not taking into account parents etc).

No, Toyota is the arch nemesis of Honda. They copy Honda's ideas and throw everything at it to make it seem Toyota are the innovation leaders. To Honda insiders in Japan there is a word that describes Toyota - Honda-ijime (Honda bully). Honda instead partnered with GM, which in some ways makes sense since they are the arch nemesis of Toyota. The only common tech with Honda and Toyota is probably hydrogen fuel station infrastructure. GM is saying they won't make fcev cars for public transportation but will for military and commercial transportation. GM touts their alliance with Honda to commercialize "the world's best fuel cell technology" but aren't going to step on each other's toes.

Tanabe has said before that Honda has technology they want to introduce to F1 but can't due to various reasons. The current F1 hybrid technology was interesting for Honda in that they could use that investment for application on road cars for the markets that will continue to sell petrol hybrid cars and likely highend luxury sports cars and SUVs for the next 10-15 years (and some mainstream models will inherit it too) . 2050 is a long way off but in the automotive world 30years is just 5 full model change life cycles. Asaki said in his interview its his responsibility to apply F1 technology to road cars and that high performance batteries systems for sports cars will be the technology that will likely trickle down first. Honda has to gradually phase out petrol cars and retool their production lines for future tech but that future tech also requires fewer workers. I expect closing of some plants and lay offs of workers but also re-training of younger associates who will be around when FCEV infrastructure matures.

[Marti_EF3]

Are there any plans to have a technological or common standards alliance with Toyota since in the West the perception is Toyota has the most advanced fuel cell technologies at the moment (not taking into account parents etc).

No, Toyota is the arch nemesis of Honda. They copy Honda's ideas and throw everything at it to make it seem Toyota are the innovation leaders. To Honda insiders in Japan there is a word that describes Toyota - Honda-ijime (Honda bully). Honda instead partnered with GM, which in some ways makes sense since they are the arch nemesis of Toyota. The only common tech with Honda and Toyota is probably hydrogen fuel station infrastructure. GM is saying they won't make fcev cars for public transportation but will for military and commercial transportation. GM touts their alliance with Honda to commercialize "the world's best fuel cell technology" but aren't going to step on each other's toes.

Tanabe has said before that Honda has technology they want to introduce to F1 but can't due to various reasons. The current F1 hybrid technology was interesting for Honda in that they could use that investment for application on road cars for the markets that will continue to sell petrol hybrid cars and likely highend luxury sports cars and SUVs for the next 10-15 years (and some mainstream models will inherit it too) . 2050 is a long way off but in the automotive world 30years is just 5 full model change life cycles. Asaki said in his interview its his responsibility to apply F1 technology to road cars and that high performance batteries systems for sports cars will be the technology that will likely trickle down first. Honda has to gradually phase out petrol cars and retool their production lines for future tech but that future tech also requires fewer workers. I expect closing of some plants and lay offs of workers but also re-training of younger associates who will be around when FCEV infrastructure matures.

Also Honda have a partnership with Hitachi to produce electrical motors. Now Toyota signed with Panasonic. But I like both brands. Toyota engines are robust as hell, like Honda too. I love the quality of their products. That's why I have a 1989 Honda Civic for track, and a Toyota Aristo for daily drive. They have awesome engines and overall quality.

P.D: If I'm not wrong, Honda was first on having a production hybrid car, and also to make a solar car too. But don't know why Toyota is faster than them bringing the ideas to road cars. Here in Europe, most people thinks that Toyota/Lexus is the best brand on hybrid tech. (Also helped by their WEC project)

[Lock2nl]

No, Toyota is the arch nemesis of Honda. They copy Honda's ideas and throw everything at it to make it seem Toyota are the innovation leaders.

I do not visit Japan very often. Never really heard them speak about Toyota that way.. nd most of them were Nissan people
But I'm curious. Toyota is supposed to be copying Honda. I mean, how long ago did Toyota start with the hybrid concept, combined with CVT and an Atkinson engine? I only recently saw Honda had one..
What is Toyota copying from Honda on the engine side?

[Revs84]

No, Toyota is the arch nemesis of Honda. They copy Honda's ideas and throw everything at it to make it seem Toyota are the innovation leaders.

I do not visit Japan very often. Never really heard them speak about Toyota that way.. nd most of them were Nissan people
But I'm curious. Toyota is supposed to be copying Honda. I mean, how long ago did Toyota start with the hybrid concept, combined with CVT and an Atkinson engine? I only recently saw Honda had one..
What is Toyota copying from Honda on the engine side?

Honda actually debuted the Insight in the US before Toyota debuted the Prius by around 1 year or so. I don't know what happened exactly, but it seems like Toyota did a better job in marketing and advancing the Prius and became the go-to hybrid car eventually.