2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

[Juzh]

Renault won the title in 2006 with a V8 on merit against Ferrari and McL. Do you guys really think that Renault chassis was that much better than Rory Birne's Ferrari because, as you said, Renault was way down on power? Of course not.

I remind you that in the late V8 era another team (Lotus) used Renault engines and they were also very competitive. Do you think that Enstone with that low budget developed superior chassis in comparison with McL? Joke. Look again at some races back then and you will see how are you wrong (I recently watched GP Spain 2012 and remember Martin Brundles commentary of Renault's top speed advantage when Grosjean overtook Rosberg on the straight).

Last couple of posts are the exact reason why this divorce will be extremely beneficiary for Renault in the long run. Bunch of F1 fans heard nothing but complaining from Horner and Marco over the years, maybe justified in 2014 and 2015, but utterly unjustified in 2009-2013 and of course drawed their own rather distorted conclusions, pretty much far away from facts. Renault are lucky that there was no internet back in the 90-is, probably they were underpowered when they took all those title with Williams also.

High revving renault of 2006 was fine, rev limited renault of 2007-2013 was garbage. They also failed to capitalise on "reliability" upgrades during engine freeze, which ultimately led to ferrari and mercedes running away in performance department. Their reliability was by far the worst, to the point it was getting ridicioulus at stages (the alternator of 2012 fiasco).

Brundle is a dinasour stuck in the days gone by. Double kers and drs will make any car look fast in barcelona straight. Yes, 2012 lotus was fast on the straights in some races, and a dog in others. Their 2013 car was better despite it losing a lot of straight line speed in the process.

[Cold Fussion]

I never heard once in the V8 era when the RB5, RB6, RB7, RB8 and RB9 were winning races and championships them complaign about the V8 Renault provided. Most of the issues in those days seemed to concentrate on how Ferrari and Mercedes seemed to gain power year over year courtesy of "reliability updates" during a period where the engines were supposed to be frozen. The only real issue in those days was a flimsy alternator.

What irked red bull the most was that Renault pushed for these new regulations and were then not anywhere near ready for the regulations when they arrived in 2014. Red Bull have always been against these PU's and would like to go back to 2009 and 2010 when they had no electronic assistance and the cars weighed 100kg less then in 2018.

I remember Red Bull complaining fairly frequently that the Renault unit was down on power compared to the Mercedes and Ferrari. They even tried to switch to Mercedes but were blocked by Mclaren.

[ognjent]

High revving renault of 2006 was fine, rev limited renault of 2007-2013 was garbage. They also failed to capitalise on "reliability" upgrades during engine freeze, which ultimately led to ferrari and mercedes running away in performance department. Their reliability was by far the worst, to the point it was getting ridicioulus at stages (the alternator of 2012 fiasco).

Brundle is a dinasour stuck in the days gone by. Double kers and drs will make any car look fast in barcelona straight. Yes, 2012 lotus was fast on the straights in some races, and a dog in others. Their 2013 car was better despite it losing a lot of straight line speed in the process.

Forget Brundle (although he very much knows what he is talking about), but Adrian Newey also disagrees wiith you (key words: blown diffuser).

Anyway, just as a reminder - Williams won their only race in the last 14 years with a Renault engine. Besides, do you know how many engine related DNF's Vettel had in those 4 years? The total of 2 in 4 years. Not bad for reliability. FFS, Kimi even set a record in number of finishes in points in a row in Lotus.

About power - if you check speed traps from those seasons you will be surprised. Lotus was always up there, RB not so much due to their high DF setups (note: of course I know that speed traps are not the outright showing of engine's power, but they are very popular these days and data is easy to find, so it's the best guess that it could be done).

To summarize - yes, Renault had a marginal less power Mercedes and Ferrari. Very slightly behind. However, that was blown out of proportion by H & M as always because they always wanted more. And that complaints are all that F1 fans will remember. Unfortunately.

[Juzh]

High revving renault of 2006 was fine, rev limited renault of 2007-2013 was garbage. They also failed to capitalise on "reliability" upgrades during engine freeze, which ultimately led to ferrari and mercedes running away in performance department. Their reliability was by far the worst, to the point it was getting ridicioulus at stages (the alternator of 2012 fiasco).

Brundle is a dinasour stuck in the days gone by. Double kers and drs will make any car look fast in barcelona straight. Yes, 2012 lotus was fast on the straights in some races, and a dog in others. Their 2013 car was better despite it losing a lot of straight line speed in the process.

Forget Brundle (although he very much knows what he is talking about), but Adrian Newey also disagrees wiith you (key words: blown diffuser).

Anyway, just as a reminder - Williams won their only race in the last 14 years with a Renault engine. Besides, do you know how many engine related DNF's Vettel had in those 4 years? The total of 2 in 4 years. Not bad for reliability. FFS, Kimi even set a record in number of finishes in points in a row in Lotus.

About power - if you check speed traps from those seasons you will be surprised. Lotus was always up there, RB not so much due to their high DF setups (note: of course I know that speed traps are not the outright showing of engine's power, but they are very popular these days and data is easy to find, so it's the best guess that it could be done).

To summarize - yes, Renault had a marginal less power Mercedes and Ferrari. Very slightly behind. However, that was blown out of proportion by H & M as always because they always wanted more. And that complaints are all that F1 fans will remember. Unfortunately.

Short and insufficient memory.

No, brundle does not know what he's talking about, not in the slightest. He's a former driver (like 20 years ago) with zero technical knowledge. He just calls things as he sees them, which in like 90% of cases is wrong. Imediately I can remember his blunder from hungary 2015, when kimi lost mgu-k. Brundle was talking about how he can still use mgu-h and so he hasn't lost all performance (the only thing he hasn't lost in this case was anti-lag).

Blown diffuser was all red bull. Rest of renault powered cars were nowhere after a couple of races. Renault's cold blowing was also inferior to mercedes' hot blowing (to not such a small extent). Red bull was just a better car.

Williams won because of pirelottery.

2012 alternator which failed twice in Vettel's car and another couple of times in Webber's was a renault supplied part, thus it's a part of the engine. There were numerous other engine related issues which cost them points. Denying this is just being silly.

Adrian Newey wanted mercedes engine in 2010 but couldn't get it (mclaren veto).

[ognjent]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AnOtILKIac

Luckily, sometimes you don't need a good memory

[McHonda]

High revving renault of 2006 was fine, rev limited renault of 2007-2013 was garbage. They also failed to capitalise on "reliability" upgrades during engine freeze, which ultimately led to ferrari and mercedes running away in performance department. Their reliability was by far the worst, to the point it was getting ridicioulus at stages (the alternator of 2012 fiasco).

Brundle is a dinasour stuck in the days gone by. Double kers and drs will make any car look fast in barcelona straight. Yes, 2012 lotus was fast on the straights in some races, and a dog in others. Their 2013 car was better despite it losing a lot of straight line speed in the process.

Forget Brundle (although he very much knows what he is talking about), but Adrian Newey also disagrees wiith you (key words: blown diffuser).

Anyway, just as a reminder - Williams won their only race in the last 14 years with a Renault engine. Besides, do you know how many engine related DNF's Vettel had in those 4 years? The total of 2 in 4 years. Not bad for reliability. FFS, Kimi even set a record in number of finishes in points in a row in Lotus.

About power - if you check speed traps from those seasons you will be surprised. Lotus was always up there, RB not so much due to their high DF setups (note: of course I know that speed traps are not the outright showing of engine's power, but they are very popular these days and data is easy to find, so it's the best guess that it could be done).

To summarize - yes, Renault had a marginal less power Mercedes and Ferrari. Very slightly behind. However, that was blown out of proportion by H & M as always because they always wanted more. And that complaints are all that F1 fans will remember. Unfortunately.

Short and insufficient memory.

No, brundle does not know what he's talking about, not in the slightest. He's a former driver (like 20 years ago) with zero technical knowledge. He just calls things as he sees them, which in like 90% of cases is wrong. Imediately I can remember his blunder from hungary 2015, when kimi lost mgu-k. Brundle was talking about how he can still use mgu-h and so he hasn't lost all performance (the only thing he hasn't lost in this case was anti-lag).

Blown diffuser was all red bull. Rest of renault powered cars were nowhere after a couple of races. Renault's cold blowing was also inferior to mercedes' hot blowing (to not such a small extent). Red bull was just a better car.

Williams won because of pirelottery.

2012 alternator which failed twice in Vettel's car and another couple of times in Webber's was a renault supplied part, thus it's a part of the engine. There were numerous other engine related issues which cost them points. Denying this is just being silly.

Adrian Newey wanted mercedes engine in 2010 but couldn't get it (mclaren veto).

Sorry but that's just all wrong. Renault have been developing engines for EBD since the early 80's, they are by far the best engines for it because they are so economical they can carry less but still blow more, it was a ridiculous advantage for Red Bull to have and Newey who'd been working with Renault for EBD purposes since the 90's new how best to exploit it and he did brilliantly no doubt but it's the best EBD engine, equally no doubt, they had 30 years perfecting it.

Not just Lotus but Williams in 2012 benefited hugely from it as well but their drivers were rubbish. Not just Spain, in Singapore they were one of the best cars in opposite sides of the season with no suggestion of tyre lottery.

Ask Ferrari or Mercedes back then if they could sacrifice 15bhp for the ability to carry less fuel than rivals but still burn more off than they could and see what they tell you. It's an insane advantage for that era which is why the FIA kept trying to hobble it.

Yes they had reliability issues but only Ferrari really didn't but it was powerful but thirsty so they had to carry more fuel and burn less off. Mercedes had reliability issues but were a good halfway point between power and efficiency wise with Renault and Ferrari.

You can't split it up as 09-13 as there were regulation tweaks that played to Renault's strengths. It's more like 2009/10 you'd want Mercedes but 2011/12/13 you'd want Renault all day every day and twice on Sunday.

[bill shoe]

What's it like to have disfunctional drivers on a team? Christian Horner happily explains, perhaps not realizing how pre-school-ish The Rules have become...

“The drivers know explicitly every weekend it alternates. Last weekend, Max drove out first, Daniel would have followed him. Next weekend it will be the other way around. Even in the debrief, from weekend to weekend, there it’s who talks first. It’s the way to keep it as scrupulously fair as we can. They know the situation. There’s nothing to explain.”

It's the race team equivalent of dysfunctional roommates using little sticky notes to label who owns what food in the fridge. On a small level it works, but in the big picture you need a change...

https://racer.com/2018/06/30/red-bull-c ... ricciardo/

[Big Tea]

What's it like to have disfunctional drivers on a team? Christian Horner happily explains, perhaps not realizing how pre-school-ish The Rules have become...

“The drivers know explicitly every weekend it alternates. Last weekend, Max drove out first, Daniel would have followed him. Next weekend it will be the other way around. Even in the debrief, from weekend to weekend, there it’s who talks first. It’s the way to keep it as scrupulously fair as we can. They know the situation. There’s nothing to explain.”

It's the race team equivalent of dysfunctional roommates using little sticky notes to label who owns what food in the fridge. On a small level it works, but in the big picture you need a change...

https://racer.com/2018/06/30/red-bull-c ... ricciardo/

But its good the team lays the law down in the office. Should not spill onto the track.
I wonder if Dan Ric would have done the same if he was waiting for them to sign the contract he left with them?

[darkpino]

What is disfunctional in this case? Rules seem pretty clear to me tbh, RBR just trying to make the best out of a bad situation (weak PU)

[bill shoe]

Don't think they're laying down the law, at least not in a way that people in their own team understand. If you read the article, there appears to be confusion in their own timing stand over what the law is.

The practical reality is that the law is whatever the RB favored son does at any given moment. This has been consistently clear for several seasons now going well back into the Vettel-Webber era.

I think Renault is doing a great long-term job building their team. That's where Ricciardo should go.

[Godius]

The rule was implemented at RBR during the early Vettel/Webber days. I don't know what Ricciardo was thinking trying to break the rules all of the sudden.

[epo]

Don't think they're laying down the law, at least not in a way that people in their own team understand. If you read the article, there appears to be confusion in their own timing stand over what the law is.

The practical reality is that the law is whatever the RB favored son does at any given moment. This has been consistently clear for several seasons now going well back into the Vettel-Webber era.

I think Renault is doing a great long-term job building their team. That's where Ricciardo should go.

Just a matter of time the idiots jump on this. Pretty clear and simply rule Horner told to Sky, what is not to understand about it? Ric was just being childish here and why the f* would he wanna go to Renault, budget sucks, engine sucks, chassis is mediocre and supported or better say blocked by their French socialist government.
Though I would love to see Ric crush Sainzt.

[ME4ME]

Nothing going on here really, just Ricciardo having a hissy fit.

[darkpino]

Don't think they're laying down the law, at least not in a way that people in their own team understand. If you read the article, there appears to be confusion in their own timing stand over what the law is.

The practical reality is that the law is whatever the RB favored son does at any given moment. This has been consistently clear for several seasons now going well back into the Vettel-Webber era.

I think Renault is doing a great long-term job building their team. That's where Ricciardo should go.

Haha wow, did you even read the article?

[Mattchu]

Fair play to Max for saying it`s about discipline, he does seem to be maturing a bit...