Caterham CT-05 Renault

[PlatinumZealot]

It's suggested it runs a 2014 PU.

Pardon me Scarbs, but whoever suggested that must be crazy or Marrussia. This would not make sense from a manufacturing, Logistics, servicing and not to mention COST stand point. It is just that much simpler for Renault to give everybody the same PU. Less costs to manufacture, service, ship, data-log one engine spec than two. It would also be cheaper for Caterham to buy an "off the shelf" 2015 than a bespoke 2014 engine.

*off the shelf used loosely here.

[PlatinumZealot]

Nose will be updated, as i have heard they have been working on the front end quite a bit; new 2015 regulation nose, front wing and suspension set-up as well, the rear end will be the Red Bull/Renault rear end as i hear Christian Horner has been one of the people helping where he can with the survival of Caterham. I will suggest that Gasly and Lynn as FP1/Test drivers for the team whilst competing in GP2 for Gasly and WSR for Lynn next year.

The engine will be the 2014 ICE and ES, but the TC, ERS-K, ERS-H & CE will all be from the 2015 Renault power plant. Down on power to what Red Bull/STR use I'm sure, but it will be reliable and be a good test bed for Renault and for the young drivers.

Ill suggest the Caterham team will be saved, but on a shoestring budget, probably with two or more pay drivers. Maybes Stephens and Mheri in the cars. However, the cars will probably be on the 107% bubble and probably finish 3-4 laps down each race. The real question is if the team would be able to make it to 2016 for me.

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[diffuser]

It's suggested it runs a 2014 PU.

Pardon me Scarbs, but whoever suggested that must be crazy or Marrussia. This would not make sense from a manufacturing, Logistics, servicing and not to mention COST stand point. It is just that much simpler for Renault to give everybody the same PU. Less costs to manufacture, service, ship, data-log one engine spec than two. It would also be cheaper for Caterham to buy an "off the shelf" 2015 than a bespoke 2014 engine.

*off the shelf used loosely here.

You're presuming they don't have enough parts lying around to build 4 new engines from scratch for next year.

[scarbs]

It was crazy enough for Caterham, RenaultSport and Red Bull to agree, then get the rest of the teams/FIA to also agree. So it must make sense for it to work. If Renault and Red Bull supply 2015 spec parts, they will charge them for it. thus reusing old tech is the only cheaper option, as there's no development cost to amortise.

[ESPImperium]

I'd imagine if Mclaren can get a Honda engine running in the MP4-29, Caterham could get the whole 2015 Renault PU running in the CT-05...

That was a chassis that was developed for the Honda PU. I was led to believe that it was chassis 05 in the MP4/29 range. I may be wrong. I have been led to believe and been told that the Energy F1-2015 will have the same mounting points as per regulation that all PUs have about 90% of the bulkhead that mounts to the chassis as different. As such, the re-working of that bulkhead and the fuel tank/ES site would be a massive task. Hence the 2014 ICE and ES would be used. The rest id suggest will be the same as the Energy F1-2015.

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[Blackout]

I'd imagine if Mclaren can get a Honda engine running in the MP4-29, Caterham could get the whole 2015 Renault PU running in the CT-05...

That was a chassis that was developed for the Honda PU. I was led to believe that it was chassis 05 in the MP4/29 range. I may be wrong. I have been led to believe and been told that the Energy F1-2015 will have the same mounting points as per regulation that all PUs have about 90% of the bulkhead that mounts to the chassis as different. As such, the re-working of that bulkhead and the fuel tank/ES site would be a massive task. Hence the 2014 ICE and ES would be used. The rest id suggest will be the same as the Energy F1-2015.

That means no split turbo for the 2015 RS34? the only reason the 2015 Renault will need a different monocoque bulckhead is the new energy storage? (mounting points are standard indeed) engine oil tank remain the 'same'?

[turbof1]

Wouldn't it be just easier and cheaper for Renault to deliver the 2015 PU spec? They need to develop and build the 2015 spec anyway, and building both the 2014 and the 2015 ones sounds much more expensive then just producing one spec.

Of course Renault could just deliver left overs from this season, if they happen to produce 4 PU's too many.

[Moose]

Wouldn't it be just easier and cheaper for Renault to deliver the 2015 PU spec? They need to develop and build the 2015 spec anyway, and building both the 2014 and the 2015 ones sounds much more expensive then just producing one spec.

Of course Renault could just deliver left overs from this season, if they happen to produce 4 PU's too many.

The question is would a 2015 engine be mountable without significant changes to chassis/gearbox/cooling/air intake layout?

[langwadt]

Wouldn't it be just easier and cheaper for Renault to deliver the 2015 PU spec? They need to develop and build the 2015 spec anyway, and building both the 2014 and the 2015 ones sounds much more expensive then just producing one spec.

Of course Renault could just deliver left overs from this season, if they happen to produce 4 PU's too many.

depending on long they take to make they would have to have at least a few, in case someone needed a 6th PU in the
final races

[ESPImperium]

Renault would not develop the 2014 ICE and ES. The other parts would be developed. Reason, cost as always. It would be easier to manufacture the 14 ICE and ES as the parts are more developed.

Renault will not run a split turbo/compressor as they have ran out of time to develop that into their 2015 power plant, but they have developed every other area of the PU. They have redeveloped the oil tank, and also developed everything else in that region of the PU to be much more efficient. Suggestions at the moment, and this is attest to what was said in the now stillborn Marussia/Manor 2015 car thread where Ferrari and Renault powered cars will be shorter next year as the ES and Fuel tanks will be shorter and taller, not great for CoG arguably, but better for the shorter tracks where they may be able to attack the Mercedes performance advantage.

Id suggest that the CT-05 will be off the pace, maybes about 4 to 5 seconds off the sharp end in raw pace, but in race trim they will be on the pace enough to make the established teams in P10 to P18 to look over their shoulder as if there is 8 retirements the CT-05 may pick up a few point paying places early in the season. Will they be lapped up to 4 times, yes, but they will still receive a point as long as they ant 10% of the race distance down on the leader.

[adrianjordan]

Wouldn't it be just easier and cheaper for Renault to deliver the 2015 PU spec? They need to develop and build the 2015 spec anyway, and building both the 2014 and the 2015 ones sounds much more expensive then just producing one spec.

Of course Renault could just deliver left overs from this season, if they happen to produce 4 PU's too many.

depending on long they take to make they would have to have at least a few, in case someone needed a 6th PU in the
final races

This. They surely must have allowed at least 1 extra of everything for each Renault powered car just in case it was needed - so simply ship those to Caterham and, Bob's your uncle, you have some engines...

[Jolle]

Wouldn't it be just easier and cheaper for Renault to deliver the 2015 PU spec? They need to develop and build the 2015 spec anyway, and building both the 2014 and the 2015 ones sounds much more expensive then just producing one spec.

Of course Renault could just deliver left overs from this season, if they happen to produce 4 PU's too many.

depending on long they take to make they would have to have at least a few, in case someone needed a 6th PU in the
final races

This. They surely must have allowed at least 1 extra of everything for each Renault powered car just in case it was needed - so simply ship those to Caterham and, Bob's your uncle, you have some engines...

reducing costs by having old spec engines is being used for quite some time now in MotoGP (even before the different tyres and production or crt classes). The cost of development isn't shared by all the teams. If Ferrari wants to invest 100mln extra in a few HP for their own team, it's then unto the small teams if they want to buy that extra technology themselves or that any spare money is more effective in aero development, etc etc etc.

Lets say you could lease an 2014 spec for 75% of a 2015 spec, that would be a huge saving. Bit like the old days with different ford engines or honda specs (Mclaren had a B spec, while Benneton had the factory spec, and in 1988, Lotus and McLaren didn't have the same Honda engines).

[PlatinumZealot]

That is true in mass manufacturing. Older products are usually cheaper because they are past the high point of the "Product life cycle cost Vs time curve."



If I have to make an educated guess this sort of product life cycle curve for the new Formula 1 engine is ridiculously short. There engines are almost protoypes in themselves, they have barely lived long enough of a period, are were many produced for costs to come down. These engines are only one year old and only about 80 engines worth of parts have been made - if that much. I can barely see how a 2014 engine will be significantly cheaper compared to the 2015 engine UNLESS Caterham use "leftover" 2014 engines that have already been paid for by the other teams that were otherwise going to be museum pieces. It is anyone's guess how many 2014 engines are left over but If what Scarbs has heard is true there seems to enough material to supply Caterham for the year.

We must also keep in mind Renault already has a R&D Budget for the new 2015 engine and in fact the engines in coming years. We have already heard Renault's engine guy say that four customers is not necessary for them to keep profitable, it is actually a bonus. We have seen Cosworth work wit two customers. Whether or not Caterham uses the 2015 engine that expense Renault has already budgeted for and they sure won't mind selling Caterham the engine at lower price if it means they can get more data for development. So yeah.. just saying there are merits on both sides whether selling Caterham the 2014 engines, or against the 2015 engines.

[ESPImperium]

The late 90s come to mind when Renault became Supertec and the early to mid 00s when Sauber ran the year previous Ferrari as a Petronas, Arrows did the same thing with a Ferrari from two years previous with a Acer badge on it.

People forget the 2006 season when STR ran the Cosworth TJ V10 limited to 16,400rpm and air restrictor when the rest were running a V8 that reed to 20,002rpm. The cost saving there was a reported €6m back then, especially when STR ran the 2005 Red Bull chassis as well. I remember Flavio and Frank Williams complaining at the time, but when they saw their cars better than the STR at the time go away from the V10 engine they were okay.

It can be done, and will be done again in 2016 for Caterham, if they find a buyer/investment.

[PlatinumZealot]

Confirmed excess of $22 million worth of 2014 Renault engines:

"The administrators are still working to sell the team; they believe that the recent permission to run year old power units will help the cause, opening up other options. A supply of Renault 2014 power units was in excess of $22 million this season."

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/12/n ... -reprieve/