Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
basti313
basti313
28
Joined: 22 Feb 2014, 14:49

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

Pierred wrote: But during that Rosberg learns a lot from Hamilton data which allows him to reduce the gap.
Actually yesterday Hamilton was asking for advice from Rosbergs data to go faster...it is just not as black and white as you paint it.
prince wrote:There are few black holes here for Nico. If Lewis holds back his true speed until Q3 in qualifying, then Nico is screwed up.
Like in Q3 in Austria? For me it looked like as Hamilton was using a more aggressive, more rearwards brake bias for turn 2 for the first time...and screwed it.
Don`t russel the hamster!

User avatar
thomin
3
Joined: 23 Feb 2012, 15:57

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

These are all nice narratives, but I don't think it's as simple as Nico copying Lewis.

For one, who's to say that Lewis can't analyze his data just as well? Secondly, both drivers do have their own driving style, so the amount of things they can learn is limited anyway. Lastly, I don't think Nico would be where he is today if he wasn't genuinely quick himself.

It sounds more like people trying to put the drivers into nice little boxes. I understand that, but I don't think it comes anywhere near reflecting reality.

astracrazy
astracrazy
31
Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: Hamilton or Rosberg

Post

dannyyyy wrote:At the beginning of the season, i was convinced, that lewis Hamilton would be a serious title contender for the 2014 season.
Today, after the Austrian Grand Prix, i'm not so sure anymore....http://formula1livenews.com/?p=288
care to follow up on why not?

I thought he re-coved himself well and saved his season. His only 29 points behind, his already recovered a 28 this season. Everyone needs to chill the fck out. This season is far from finished. I'm sure Rosberg will have his bad luck (a DNF or 2) at some point this season too.

When Hamilton is winning everyone calls its Hamilton's title, Rosberg can't compete. A few weeks later its the other way around. It will be like this all season. I mean theres double points at the last race, you never know Rosberg could have a DNF there and Lewis gets 50 points on him.....

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

IMO, I don't think the DNFs will level out. Statistically (and logically), there's no reason why Rosberg should suddenly get a DNF. It could very well hit Lewis again. In fact, I think given that Lewis is behind by a mighty 29 points - and 29 points is a lot when you're effectively trading wins and 2nds - it more likely that he'll be pushing harder, closer to the limit to make up what he has lost. Nico can afford the occasional 2nd to Lewis, or even a qualifying stuff-up - because even a solid 2nd will ensure that the gap isn't closed significantly.

It's unlikely that one driver will dominate the other over 5 or even more GPs in a row. They're too closely matched. If Lewis has one more DNF while his team-mate wins it, I think its over. I might be slightly pessimistic, but I think the "momentum"-factor shouldn't be underestimated. Lewis needs to win 5 times in a row to make up what he lost (unlikely). Coming just once second to his team-mate, like yesterday, and it will mean it'll take a win longer. And with every race where the gap isn't shortened, increases the pressure on the driver being behind.

Rosberg can play the numbers game, which might mean he might just suffer less of any technical issues. If Rosberg doesn't get a DNF soon, I don't think it'll be all that close. IMO Rosberg is driving very comfortable, with margin, is cool and relaxed. This will only make it more difficult for Lewis, better or not, faster or not.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

basti313
basti313
28
Joined: 22 Feb 2014, 14:49

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

Phil wrote:IMO, I don't think the DNFs will level out. Statistically (and logically), there's no reason why Rosberg should suddenly get a DNF. It could very well hit Lewis again.
You are absolutely right. Statistics tell us nothing about the future, but only about the past.
Phil wrote: Rosberg can play the numbers game, which might mean he might just suffer less of any technical issues. If Rosberg doesn't get a DNF soon, I don't think it'll be all that close. IMO Rosberg is driving very comfortable, with margin, is cool and relaxed. This will only make it more difficult for Lewis, better or not, faster or not.
And Rosberg can defend his position as he wants to. He already showed in Canada, that he does not pull back anymore when Hamilton is alongside. Whereas Hamilton can not afford to crash.
Don`t russel the hamster!

User avatar
Jordan44
3
Joined: 20 Jun 2014, 17:06

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

Phil wrote:IMO, I don't think the DNFs will level out. Statistically (and logically), there's no reason why Rosberg should suddenly get a DNF.
But you could also say statistically Rosberg is guaranteed to get a DNF. He's had one in every season in all formulas he's raced in since Formula 3 Euro Series.

Pierred
Pierred
0
Joined: 13 May 2014, 07:39

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

thomin wrote:These are all nice narratives, but I don't think it's as simple as Nico copying Lewis.
For one, who's to say that Lewis can't analyze his data just as well? Secondly, both drivers do have their own driving style, so the amount of things they can learn is limited anyway. Lastly, I don't think Nico would be where he is today if he wasn't genuinely quick himself.
It sounds more like people trying to put the drivers into nice little boxes. I understand that, but I don't think it comes anywhere near reflecting reality.
Of course the common knowledge of my post is : NR and LH are top F1 pilots, they are very quick and both they know how to read data and setup a car etc... but they are also different and i give my thoughts about that ! I don't try to put them in little boxes, i just try to understand why NR has been quicker than LH, and not during the first races, and try to predict the next races.

User avatar
thomin
3
Joined: 23 Feb 2012, 15:57

Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

Pierred wrote:
thomin wrote:These are all nice narratives, but I don't think it's as simple as Nico copying Lewis.
For one, who's to say that Lewis can't analyze his data just as well? Secondly, both drivers do have their own driving style, so the amount of things they can learn is limited anyway. Lastly, I don't think Nico would be where he is today if he wasn't genuinely quick himself.
It sounds more like people trying to put the drivers into nice little boxes. I understand that, but I don't think it comes anywhere near reflecting reality.
Of course the common knowledge of my post is : NR and LH are top F1 pilots, they are very quick and both they know how to read data and setup a car etc... but they are also different and i give my thoughts about that ! I don't try to put them in little boxes, i just try to understand why NR has been quicker than LH, and not during the first races, and try to predict the next races.
Ok, I think I'll paddle back a little, it's just that it sounded a lot like the narratives we often hear about Lewis being the more natural talent and Nico being the thinking driver which I find too simplistic.

From where I stand, both drivers have shown an extremely similar performance throughout the year with the exception of Malaysia. So the differences came down to little things like personal preference, daily form, making fewer errors and a bit of luck. During his winning streak, Lewis had more of these little things going for him, now it's Nico. But I don't see much of an underlying principle going on there. It's just too similarly quick drivers duking it out.

astracrazy
astracrazy
31
Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

Phil wrote:IMO, I don't think the DNFs will level out. Statistically (and logically), there's no reason why Rosberg should suddenly get a DNF.

I think given that Lewis is behind by a mighty 29 points - and 29 points is a lot when you're effectively trading wins and 2nds - it more likely that he'll be pushing harder, closer to the limit to make up what he has lost. Nico can afford the occasional 2nd to Lewis, or even a qualifying stuff-up - because even a solid 2nd will ensure that the gap isn't closed significantly.

If Rosberg doesn't get a DNF soon, I don't think it'll be all that close. IMO Rosberg is driving very comfortable, with margin, is cool and relaxed. This will only make it more difficult for Lewis, better or not, faster or not.
a) how can anyone predict if a driver will or won't get a DNF? How is there any logic involved about knowing if a component will fail or not?

b) did you watch the first part of the season when he come back from 25 points down?

c) rosberg is driving well and taking advantage of the fact lewis has made some mistakes (which is what you have to do so fair play to him). But cool and relaxed? Comfortable with margin? really? when? Cause thats a bold claim considering monaco quali, monaco race and canada race comes to mind. He also doesn't have to get a dnf soon, he could get one at the last gp which could cost him 50 points to lewis.

The last 3 gp lewis woulda/shoulda/coulda of got pole if not for mistakes or blowing his banker - that's his fault and lost but this isn't done for a long way yet. If anything lewis is beating lewis at the moment.

User avatar
adrianjordan
24
Joined: 28 Feb 2010, 11:34
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

You know what the worst part is...it's looking very likely that the double points in the final race will decide the title...
Favourite driver: Lando Norris
Favourite team: McLaren

Turned down the chance to meet Vettel at Silverstone in 2007. He was a test driver at the time and I didn't think it was worth queuing!! 🤦🏻‍♂️

User avatar
thomin
3
Joined: 23 Feb 2012, 15:57

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

adrianjordan wrote:You know what the worst part is...it's looking very likely that the double points in the final race will decide the title...
I really, really, really hope this won't happen. But I fear it might. Depending on how close the race will be, the chance of the double points altering the champion could be as high as 50%.
It would be a travesty if that happened.

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

astracrazy wrote:b) did you watch the first part of the season when he come back from 25 points down?
You know, we're really on the same side here. In pretty much the entirety of my post, I'm not doubting Lewis's ability and talent. And yes, I have watched the entire season so far, at the very edge my couch and am as annoyed as anyone when slow pitstops or other factors (like Lewis himself on Saturday) come into play.

My point is more; There's no logical reason that Nico is more likely to suffer a DNF than Lewis. Similar to a roulette table, even after a red came 10 times in a row, the propability of it either being a black or white, is still 50/50 on the next turn (well, 49.999, because of the 0 field, but lets just ignore that). If DNFs are in anyway related to how a car is driven, and even if this factor weights less than a percent in the grand scheme of things, Nico still has the odds stacked in his favour (for now) because he is leading the WDC with a comfortable margin, so can afford to take less risks.

It's a mental game really, and in this mental game, it all comes down to how far Lewis feels he needs to push to beat Nico. And I think on Saturday, part of that mental game has already caused some error / overdriving. There are countless examples of this mental aspect; in Tennis, playing against Rafael Nadal ie. means that any player trying to beat him will try to play closer to the corners/lines then perhaps against other players where winning shots with margins might be enough. Playing closer to the corners/lines means you are more likely to hit an unforced error. It's really the same in driving too - if you know your opponent is that strong (which he is, all credit to Nico), you tend to drive with less margin perhaps.

The larger the WDC gap is, the more *this* will become apparent IMO.

As I said, I'm not doubting Lewis's skill in anyway. But surely, the (growing) gap in the WDC means anything but good news. We might still be early in the whole WDC race and in that sense, 29 points in peanuts, but at the same time, I can't help but think, Canada (out of his hands) and Austria are the races he should have won - and races where he did show that he had the pace to do so. Not winning these, only means that the pressure to win the next race is higher.

Also, given both Mercedes are likely to qualify ahead of any other cars, makes a DNF less likely IMO. Because with the margin they still have relative to the opposition, they can manage their race better, similar to how Vettel could do this during the years of Redbull dominance. If you get tanglet up in the midfield, there's a higher probability for things to go wrong or DNFs to happen (Webber). Since Hamilton and Nico are both likely to be ahead of them, even having technical issues can be managed quite well (Rosberg in Canada).

The sole fact that both Mercedes drivers are effectively battling for win and 2nd vs DNF makes this entire a race a very mentally intense one.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

astracrazy
astracrazy
31
Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

@phil

I know where your coming from but i just think that some of this talk of the championship is now nicos etc etc is rubbish. It wasn't long ago we were questioning nico because lewis was on the ball and how much pressure was on nico. To me, and i'm no trying to fanboy, but if lewis puts all the pieces of the puzzle together we get the 4 in a row he had this year. nico is a good driver and because he pushes lewis so hard he is there if lewis slips up and also keeps the pressure on lewis which again, can cause him to slip up (as we have seen). imo nico is making lewis beat lewis.

the dnf this i don't get though. the 1st was nothing to do with him and the 2nd wasn't really either. the failure of the control unit happened to both cars, but what effected him was because he was behind nico he has to have his bias more rearward, so you could argue had he been in front....but a dnf can come from anywhere so at least one for nico can't be ruled out - and as you say because the likely hood is merc 1-2 this will bring lewis right into play.

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

I agree. About the DNF - the first wasn't his fault in anyway, but I was more refering to any future DNFs. Arguably, the Canada DNF was induced by following Nico around so close. Had the roles been reversed, it might have been the other way around.

Still, looking into the future, I think a DNF is more likely to strike the driver who is pushing harder - and because Lewis has points to make up, I think that could just befall him more likely for this reason.

But yeah, if Nico has a DNF and the gap is down to zero, this talk will be all for nothing.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

astracrazy
astracrazy
31
Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

Post

it wasn't long ago the discussion was the other way. how the pressure was on nico, how its lewis's title now etc. etc. and in fact it was nico's own mistake (monaco quali) which turned the tide for him. so lets just see what happens