Racing Point RP20

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Mchamilton
Mchamilton
24
Joined: 26 Feb 2011, 17:16

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

subcritical71 wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 14:16
jjn9128 wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 10:16
Okay it's very simple.
  • Last season brake ducts were non-listed parts
  • Last season Racing point received CAD for front and rear brake ducts from Mercedes - legally
  • RP did use the Merc front brake ducts on their car last year
  • Last season RP chose not to run the rear brake ducts because their rake strategy clashed with Merc
  • This year brake ducts became listed parts
  • There was also a small change to the front brake duct regulation
  • RP changed the front duct to accommodate the rule change - the FIA does not reasonably expect them to change all the aero surfaces of the duct too much from last year and accepts this as their part - called "grandfathering"
  • However, they did not run the Merc rear ducts last year
  • Racing point decided to copy the whole Merc car this year - the FIA accepts this was done by reverse engineering from photographs which is legal - though in this case in extremis
  • Part of this was copying the low rake concept which meant they could now use the Merc rear brake ducts
  • The FIA does not accept the grandfathering arguement with the rear ducts as they are "new" for this year - despite being legally received last year and slightly altered the FIA does not accept this definition of "design"
  • The car fully comply's with the technical regulations so this breach is one of sporting regulations which says teams must own the IP of listed parts
  • Disqualification is not possible because of this so they've lost their constructors points and received a fine
Where it becomes tricky is that they have been declared to have been "designed" illegally so why they've not lost all points for every race they have and will used them for, or been forced to change them? It seems the FIA is on a cost cutting kick so feel forcing them to design new ducts is prohibitively expensive.

On the other hand RP procured the designs legally and changed them slightly, albeit by reverse engineering the CAD. This is a type of "design", which the FIA said was a very narrow definition. However, it's very easy to see the arguement that it is therefor by definition a different part - even if the definition of design is narrow it's still design.

I can see Racing Point appealing, because I can see their arguement (I can also see the counter arguement). In my opinion the issue is not with what Racing Point did, more the FIAs wording and handling of the rule change of the listed parts. Which the FIA seem to concede and I think is why the penalty is lenient. The FIA have accepted it's their failing so are treating this like a warning that going forward this will be illegal - kinda like one of their famous technical directives. However, on the flip side of this is that in this case what Racing Point did was fine because the FIA failed to fully cover this eventuality in the rules. You can't retroactively apply punishment for rules not yet defined.
Very well written! This is how I interpret the proceedings so far also. I see RP have now appealed. I do think they have a good chance on that appeal but it could still go badly for them. If they loose this appeal I believe it’s only time before the rest of the car is proven illegal. If they win the appeal the clone will continue to race the rest of the year without further protest. A lot riding on this decision for RP.
There is zero chance of the rest of the car being deemed illegal, the fia have already said they are fine with the process that RP used to design the car. No other team is planning to protest any other part of the car, as the rear brake ducts were a specific case given the change from none listed to listed parts.

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strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

Okay it's very simple.
Last season brake ducts were non-listed parts
Last season Racing point received CAD for front and rear brake ducts from Mercedes - legally
.
And that part explains what some see as a light punishment and why they get to keep running them.
It wasn't illegal when they did it and the FIA changed the rules mid-stream and that ain't fair.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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Big Tea
99
Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

Mchamilton wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 19:37
subcritical71 wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 14:16
jjn9128 wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 10:16
Okay it's very simple.
  • Last season brake ducts were non-listed parts
  • Last season Racing point received CAD for front and rear brake ducts from Mercedes - legally
  • RP did use the Merc front brake ducts on their car last year
  • Last season RP chose not to run the rear brake ducts because their rake strategy clashed with Merc
  • This year brake ducts became listed parts
  • There was also a small change to the front brake duct regulation
  • RP changed the front duct to accommodate the rule change - the FIA does not reasonably expect them to change all the aero surfaces of the duct too much from last year and accepts this as their part - called "grandfathering"
  • However, they did not run the Merc rear ducts last year
  • Racing point decided to copy the whole Merc car this year - the FIA accepts this was done by reverse engineering from photographs which is legal - though in this case in extremis
  • Part of this was copying the low rake concept which meant they could now use the Merc rear brake ducts
  • The FIA does not accept the grandfathering arguement with the rear ducts as they are "new" for this year - despite being legally received last year and slightly altered the FIA does not accept this definition of "design"
  • The car fully comply's with the technical regulations so this breach is one of sporting regulations which says teams must own the IP of listed parts
  • Disqualification is not possible because of this so they've lost their constructors points and received a fine
Where it becomes tricky is that they have been declared to have been "designed" illegally so why they've not lost all points for every race they have and will used them for, or been forced to change them? It seems the FIA is on a cost cutting kick so feel forcing them to design new ducts is prohibitively expensive.

On the other hand RP procured the designs legally and changed them slightly, albeit by reverse engineering the CAD. This is a type of "design", which the FIA said was a very narrow definition. However, it's very easy to see the arguement that it is therefor by definition a different part - even if the definition of design is narrow it's still design.

I can see Racing Point appealing, because I can see their arguement (I can also see the counter arguement). In my opinion the issue is not with what Racing Point did, more the FIAs wording and handling of the rule change of the listed parts. Which the FIA seem to concede and I think is why the penalty is lenient. The FIA have accepted it's their failing so are treating this like a warning that going forward this will be illegal - kinda like one of their famous technical directives. However, on the flip side of this is that in this case what Racing Point did was fine because the FIA failed to fully cover this eventuality in the rules. You can't retroactively apply punishment for rules not yet defined.
Very well written! This is how I interpret the proceedings so far also. I see RP have now appealed. I do think they have a good chance on that appeal but it could still go badly for them. If they loose this appeal I believe it’s only time before the rest of the car is proven illegal. If they win the appeal the clone will continue to race the rest of the year without further protest. A lot riding on this decision for RP.
There is zero chance of the rest of the car being deemed illegal, the fia have already said they are fine with the process that RP used to design the car. No other team is planning to protest any other part of the car, as the rear brake ducts were a specific case given the change from none listed to listed parts.
RP say they worked with FIA on the car and have been told it is OK, so if they now say it is not they are going to look the fools, so an appeal has nothing to lose for RP. "You said it was OK, now you say no, we want recompense for it"

Erm,, let me see that paper again!.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
479
Joined: 10 Mar 2019, 03:54

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

Mchamilton wrote:
subcritical71 wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 14:16
jjn9128 wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 10:16
Okay it's very simple.
  • Last season brake ducts were non-listed parts
  • Last season Racing point received CAD for front and rear brake ducts from Mercedes - legally
  • RP did use the Merc front brake ducts on their car last year
  • Last season RP chose not to run the rear brake ducts because their rake strategy clashed with Merc
  • This year brake ducts became listed parts
  • There was also a small change to the front brake duct regulation
  • RP changed the front duct to accommodate the rule change - the FIA does not reasonably expect them to change all the aero surfaces of the duct too much from last year and accepts this as their part - called "grandfathering"
  • However, they did not run the Merc rear ducts last year
  • Racing point decided to copy the whole Merc car this year - the FIA accepts this was done by reverse engineering from photographs which is legal - though in this case in extremis
  • Part of this was copying the low rake concept which meant they could now use the Merc rear brake ducts
  • The FIA does not accept the grandfathering arguement with the rear ducts as they are "new" for this year - despite being legally received last year and slightly altered the FIA does not accept this definition of "design"
  • The car fully comply's with the technical regulations so this breach is one of sporting regulations which says teams must own the IP of listed parts
  • Disqualification is not possible because of this so they've lost their constructors points and received a fine
Where it becomes tricky is that they have been declared to have been "designed" illegally so why they've not lost all points for every race they have and will used them for, or been forced to change them? It seems the FIA is on a cost cutting kick so feel forcing them to design new ducts is prohibitively expensive.

On the other hand RP procured the designs legally and changed them slightly, albeit by reverse engineering the CAD. This is a type of "design", which the FIA said was a very narrow definition. However, it's very easy to see the arguement that it is therefor by definition a different part - even if the definition of design is narrow it's still design.

I can see Racing Point appealing, because I can see their arguement (I can also see the counter arguement). In my opinion the issue is not with what Racing Point did, more the FIAs wording and handling of the rule change of the listed parts. Which the FIA seem to concede and I think is why the penalty is lenient. The FIA have accepted it's their failing so are treating this like a warning that going forward this will be illegal - kinda like one of their famous technical directives. However, on the flip side of this is that in this case what Racing Point did was fine because the FIA failed to fully cover this eventuality in the rules. You can't retroactively apply punishment for rules not yet defined.
Very well written! This is how I interpret the proceedings so far also. I see RP have now appealed. I do think they have a good chance on that appeal but it could still go badly for them. If they loose this appeal I believe it’s only time before the rest of the car is proven illegal. If they win the appeal the clone will continue to race the rest of the year without further protest. A lot riding on this decision for RP.
There is zero chance of the rest of the car being deemed illegal, the fia have already said they are fine with the process that RP used to design the car. No other team is planning to protest any other part of the car, as the rear brake ducts were a specific case given the change from none listed to listed parts.
I wouldn’t be so sure about that... The brake ducts were a very obvious one for the teams to protest on, they very well could have been waiting for the outcome of the first protest to place the next one.

There is no timing for it... Racing Point knew about Renault’s brake controller way before Suzuka last year and waited until Renault had a good result and that the DSQ would benefit them to place the protest.


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SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
479
Joined: 10 Mar 2019, 03:54

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

strad wrote:
Okay it's very simple.
Last season brake ducts were non-listed parts
Last season Racing point received CAD for front and rear brake ducts from Mercedes - legally
.
And that part explains what some see as a light punishment and why they get to keep running them.
It wasn't illegal when they did it and the FIA changed the rules mid-stream and that ain't fair.
It’s not about “fair”, it’s about following the rules... They could have argued the rules in advance and they didn’t... It’s like Mclaren’s situation with the engine change, the rules were changed towards 2021 and they made the deal with Mercedes before that happened, the resolution (giving tokens) isn’t fair for McLaren since they can’t improve their car with those tokens, while the rest of the teams can use them for performance improvements.

Haas was buying the brake ducts from Ferrari and were in a similar situation to RP in that regard, nevertheless they had to design their own for this season.


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User avatar
F1Krof
94
Joined: 22 Feb 2016, 21:17

Re: Racing Point RP20

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SmallSoldier wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 20:17
strad wrote:
Okay it's very simple.
Last season brake ducts were non-listed parts
Last season Racing point received CAD for front and rear brake ducts from Mercedes - legally
.
And that part explains what some see as a light punishment and why they get to keep running them.
It wasn't illegal when they did it and the FIA changed the rules mid-stream and that ain't fair.
It’s not about “fair”, it’s about following the rules... They could have argued the rules in advance and they didn’t... It’s like Mclaren’s situation with the engine change, the rules were changed towards 2021 and they made the deal with Mercedes before that happened, the resolution (giving tokens) isn’t fair for McLaren since they can’t improve their car with those tokens, while the rest of the teams can use them for performance improvements.

Haas was buying the brake ducts from Ferrari and were in a similar situation to RP in that regard, nevertheless they had to design their own for this season.


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Thank you! This is the sealing argument for me. And frankly I'm quite baffled why nobody seem to be mentioning this.
Wroom wroom

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Red Rock Mutley
11
Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 17:04

Re: Racing Point RP20

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This is interesting from the perspective of when the 2020 rules apply. Perhaps someone who is familiar with the detail can comment authoritatively, however taking it on word that the rule on IP is a sporting reg, then there are likely to be a number of possible points in time from which the rule applies. For a “normal” championship the customary aim is to draw a line under that year's regs at the end of the last race and apply the next year's regs going forwards, either at that point, or on opening of entry, whichever is later. However entry in to F1 may be on a continual rolling basis, so there is a possibility for rules that constrain next year’s car to apply from the moment of ratification

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nico5
19
Joined: 12 Mar 2017, 18:55

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

jjn9128 wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 10:16
Okay it's very simple.
  • Last season Racing point received CAD for front and rear brake ducts from Mercedes - legally
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/raci ... n=widget-1

"Racing Point received 2019-spec Formula 1 brake ducts from Mercedes in January as spare parts for its RP20 car in pre-season testing."

Oops.

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siskue2005
70
Joined: 11 May 2007, 21:50

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

nico5 wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 11:42
jjn9128 wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 10:16
Okay it's very simple.
  • Last season Racing point received CAD for front and rear brake ducts from Mercedes - legally
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/raci ... n=widget-1

"Racing Point received 2019-spec Formula 1 brake ducts from Mercedes in January as spare parts for its RP20 car in pre-season testing."

Oops.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 1Uy9c.html
In a 14-page document issued at Silverstone, the FIA stewards outlined in detail why Renault’s protest had been upheld. The crux of the matter focused on when the new rules around listed parts were applied, Racing Point arguing that the new sporting regulations only came into force a day before FP1 in Austria.


Oops.

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JordanMugen
85
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: Racing Point RP20

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
07 Aug 2020, 16:58
Latest is that they received CAD drawings for the rear brake ducts after the ruling in June 2019.
Worse than that, they received the actual physical Mercedes-Benz ducts in January 2020 for spare parts in testing as Mercedes-Benz somehow knew the 2019 Mercedes-Benz rear brake ducts would be interchangable with the 2020 Racing Point rear brake ducts on the 2020 Racing Point car (not just the physical fitment from the mounting points on the Mercedes-supplied upright, but the aero philosophy too).

If Racing Point is an independent competitor who designed their own car from scratch, how did Mercedes-Benz know their ducts would fit!? :wtf:

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JordanMugen
85
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: Racing Point RP20

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tomazy wrote:
07 Aug 2020, 11:23
Are you sure?? This looks loke S-duct to me on W10.
https://cdn-7.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... deta-1.jpg
I wonder if the internal routing of the RP20 S-duct is similar to the W10?

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siskue2005
70
Joined: 11 May 2007, 21:50

Re: Racing Point RP20

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JordanMugen wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 12:16
PlatinumZealot wrote:
07 Aug 2020, 16:58
Latest is that they received CAD drawings for the rear brake ducts after the ruling in June 2019.
Worse than that, they received the actual physical Mercedes-Benz ducts in January 2020 for spare parts in testing as Mercedes-Benz somehow knew the 2019 Mercedes-Benz rear brake ducts would be interchangable with the 2020 Racing Point rear brake ducts on the 2020 Racing Point car (not just the physical fitment from the mounting points on the Mercedes-supplied upright, but the aero philosophy too).

If Racing Point is an independent competitor who designed their own car from scratch, how did Mercedes-Benz know their ducts would fit!? :wtf:
Because brake ducts can be legally brought from others, the sporting regulation was not active until the FP1 of the first race. It has been the same with every other copycat teams like AT, Hass et al. Those parts can be brought as CAD files or the actual parts... Same with engine, MGU K, MGU H, Batteries, suspension and gearboxes ( you dont have to make them at your factory, u can get ready made parts) all part of cost cutting for smaller teams

The only problem is the FIA again didnot make a proper distinction when they suddenly decided teams cant buy brake ducts, they didnt think teams could buy before hand and use it.

And coming to answer how did Mercedes knew! because the entire rear end is sold to them, also to Williams

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TNTHead
9
Joined: 01 May 2017, 21:41
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Racing Point RP20

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JordanMugen wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 12:16
PlatinumZealot wrote:
07 Aug 2020, 16:58
Latest is that they received CAD drawings for the rear brake ducts after the ruling in June 2019.
Worse than that, they received the actual physical Mercedes-Benz ducts in January 2020 for spare parts in testing as Mercedes-Benz somehow knew the 2019 Mercedes-Benz rear brake ducts would be interchangable with the 2020 Racing Point rear brake ducts on the 2020 Racing Point car (not just the physical fitment from the mounting points on the Mercedes-supplied upright, but the aero philosophy too).

If Racing Point is an independent competitor who designed their own car from scratch, how did Mercedes-Benz know their ducts would fit!? :wtf:
This is the elephant in the room if you ask me. The role of Merc is almost left silent. The way Toto replied to the RP fine you at least get the impression that it's all directed or done in close cooperation with Merc, which goes much further than selling some parts. If F1 doesnt want to go in the direction of a spec serie they should be very clear in their rules this is not the way to go.

Tzk
Tzk
34
Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 12:49

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 12:16
If Racing Point is an independent competitor who designed their own car from scratch, how did Mercedes-Benz know their ducts would fit!? :wtf:
Afaik RP runs the complete 2019 Merc suspension. That's why the 2019 Merc duct will (obviously) fit. It's the exact same upright, brakes, wishbones etc.

Haas and AlphaTauri do the same, they buy as many Ferrari and RedBull parts as possible. But in contrast to RP they are (afaik) running 2020 parts instead of 2019. That's why RP could base their design of the ducts on the 2019 Mercs and Hass+AT couldn't use 2020 Ferrari/RB parts. Last year the ducts weren't listed parts.

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siskue2005
70
Joined: 11 May 2007, 21:50

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

TNTHead wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 12:37
JordanMugen wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 12:16
PlatinumZealot wrote:
07 Aug 2020, 16:58
Latest is that they received CAD drawings for the rear brake ducts after the ruling in June 2019.
Worse than that, they received the actual physical Mercedes-Benz ducts in January 2020 for spare parts in testing as Mercedes-Benz somehow knew the 2019 Mercedes-Benz rear brake ducts would be interchangable with the 2020 Racing Point rear brake ducts on the 2020 Racing Point car (not just the physical fitment from the mounting points on the Mercedes-supplied upright, but the aero philosophy too).

If Racing Point is an independent competitor who designed their own car from scratch, how did Mercedes-Benz know their ducts would fit!? :wtf:
This is the elephant in the room if you ask me. The role of Merc is almost left silent. The way Toto replied to the RP fine you at least get the impression that it's all directed or done in close cooperation with Merc, which goes much further than selling some parts. If F1 doesnt want to go in the direction of a spec serie they should be very clear in their rules this is not the way to go.
You just need to make the 'listed parts' - and it is currently limited to the survival cell, the front impact structure, the roll structures and bodywork with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed bodywork geometries.

All the other things can be brought from competitors...it has been like this for years now. The Haas and Alfa had similar arrangements with Ferrari and Now Merc with Williams and RP (only now RP decided to copy all the visible parts of the car and make it themselves)

But now from 2020 FP1 onward they have added brake ducts to the list of things they need to make it themselves

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/brak ... 0/4361531/