Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[taperoo2k]

The split turbo was an ingenious concept, something that SHOULD be copied! It is easily as big of an innovation as the DD-diffusor of Brawn GP, which was of course copied by the whole paddock. Or the f-duct. Or the exhaust-blown diffusor. Or the Double DRS.

Again you can copy something but that does not necessarily mean it will work for you right off the bat. As you will have to figure out what else Mercedes have done and attempt to emulate it and that takes time. Who knows Honda might move to a split turbo design in 2017.

Part of F1 is knowing when someone else has done something really clever. If you read the Mercedes thread, there is lots of speculation about the Mercedes combustion concept (most believe they really are running incredibly stratified / lean charges).

I'm aware of thread and the speculation about what Mercedes has done. As I said above it's one thing spotting a team doing something clever it's another figuring it out, designing your own version and eventually placing into the car for use in races.

And as far as spying on Mercedes, do you REALLY believe that McLaren, the team that was fined $100M for "cheating" a while back, didn't put a borescope down into the engine? Ultrasound? Fuel consumption? Turbo design? Honda had access to all of these things. They probably even had a good idea of what kind of power they needed to make to be competitive too.

Do you really think Mercedes would have not been keeping a close watch on McLaren ? In light of what's gone on before ? I'm sure if they suspected designs or other IP had been stolen by McLaren they'd have gone to the FIA or started court action. The technology is massively important to Mercedes beyond F1.
Tbh if you want an inside scoop of what Mercedes are doing, then you have to hire Mercedes Engineers with working knowledge of all the systems. I'm sure McLaren gained some useful data on the Mercedes PU, but by the sounds of it Mercedes kept a close watch on the PU's supplied to McLaren and did not share much in terms of the fuel chemistry other than just enough to make the PU run.

But instead Honda has gone with a very different concept, one that doesn't seem to be working. Arai was sacked, and I believe a bunch of others over last two-year's engine program. Yes, they ran much better at OZ but they also had a LOT of time to get ready. Not a single team did what Merc did this year in testing, which was run a virtual SEASON in terms of mileage.

It looks like Honda will be switching it's design path later in the season. If Honda can get the design to work then they will have a good PU to challenge Mercedes with. As you should be aware by now, Honda as yet have not spent all the tokens on the PU. Not even sure they've introduced the new Turbo and compressor yet.

As for Mercedes ? They got the design correct (after Brawn apparently told the engineers to start again). Therefore they have a more mature PU and chassis package which allowed them to cover a season's worth of running in Winter testing.
Honda, Ferrari and Renault are playing catch up, while Mercedes continues to refine it's PU design.

[hemichromis]

Button said in an interview that there is a new compressor.

Next move might be to copy the Ferrari turbo layout.
A change to a Mercedes layout would require far more tokens as I understand it.

I'd actually prefer they keep the current layout and get it working well, if they can.

[PlatinumZealot]

They are not changing the layout. There is nothing wrong with it. They even made the airbox bigger to accomodate the bigger compressor underneath and straight trumpets. Really, you people are panicking a bit too much now.

[Bence]

Again you can copy something but that does not necessarily mean it will work for you right off the bat. As you will have to figure out what else Mercedes have done and attempt to emulate it and that takes time. Who knows Honda might move to a split turbo design in 2017.

They already had a split turbo layout in 2015. Turbine @ the rear, compressor in the V.

BTW, as we heard, that the Old Boys Club wants to modify the engine, and put the compressor to the back; how difficult would it be to build an extreme Hot-V engine (exhaust & turbine in the valley, compressor in the rear)???

With exhaust channels and turbine housing cast as one... of course, the end pipe would be insanely difficult to route, but just playing with ideas...

[wuzak]

Again you can copy something but that does not necessarily mean it will work for you right off the bat. As you will have to figure out what else Mercedes have done and attempt to emulate it and that takes time. Who knows Honda might move to a split turbo design in 2017.

They already had a split turbo layout in 2015. Turbine @ the rear, compressor in the V.

BTW, as we heard, that the Old Boys Club wants to modify the engine, and put the compressor to the back; how difficult would it be to build an extreme Hot-V engine (exhaust & turbine in the valley, compressor in the rear)???

With exhaust channels and turbine housing cast as one... of course, the end pipe would be insanely difficult to route, but just playing with ideas...

The exhaust has to exit on the outside of the vee....

[hemichromis]

Again you can copy something but that does not necessarily mean it will work for you right off the bat. As you will have to figure out what else Mercedes have done and attempt to emulate it and that takes time. Who knows Honda might move to a split turbo design in 2017.

They already had a split turbo layout in 2015. Turbine @ the rear, compressor in the V.

BTW, as we heard, that the Old Boys Club wants to modify the engine, and put the compressor to the back; how difficult would it be to build an extreme Hot-V engine (exhaust & turbine in the valley, compressor in the rear)???

With exhaust channels and turbine housing cast as one... of course, the end pipe would be insanely difficult to route, but just playing with ideas...

Have you heard any more than a whisper about this?
I've heard it to but without Mr Wazari here to give insight.......

[toraabe]

Honda went in a different design direction to Mercedes rightly or wrongly, it would have been easier to emulate Mercedes (you can only copy if you have the complete schematics as to what Mercedes has done, there's more to it than the split turbo design alone).

The split turbo was an ingenious concept, something that SHOULD be copied! It is easily as big of an innovation as the DD-diffusor of Brawn GP, which was of course copied by the whole paddock. Or the f-duct. Or the exhaust-blown diffusor. Or the Double DRS.

Part of F1 is knowing when someone else has done something really clever. If you read the Mercedes thread, there is lots of speculation about the Mercedes combustion concept (most believe they really are running incredibly stratified / lean charges).

And as far as spying on Mercedes, do you REALLY believe that McLaren, the team that was fined $100M for "cheating" a while back, didn't put a borescope down into the engine? Ultrasound? Fuel consumption? Turbo design? Honda had access to all of these things. They probably even had a good idea of what kind of power they needed to make to be competitive too.

But instead Honda has gone with a very different concept, one that doesn't seem to be working. Arai was sacked, and I believe a bunch of others over last two-year's engine program. Yes, they ran much better at OZ but they also had a LOT of time to get ready. Not a single team did what Merc did this year in testing, which was run a virtual SEASON in terms of mileage.

As you said, " The split turbo was an ingenious concept," but remember Mercedes began working on that concept way before the others. http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/12/m ... 4-engines/ It took them almost a year just to make their turbo concept reliable. Since it sits so deep in the vee, I assume the whole package is deeply integrated within the engine block and the inlet plenum. For the others to make the same, they probably have to redesign the whole engine block within the vee and to develop their own package. It is not that you do in a couple of months ..

[noname]

With exhaust channels and turbine housing cast as one... of course, the end pipe would be insanely difficult to route, but just playing with ideas...

Apart from going against regulations (as Wuzak already mention) you would end up with overweight, prone to cracking and difficult to modify exhausts.

Integrated manifolds are being used in serial production, but their only real advantage is they are cheap (when the volumes are high).

[Andres125sx]

Wazari, we miss you!

[hemichromis]

https://twitter.com/f1writers

INCREÍBLE: McLarenHonda salva el motor y la caja de cambios del MP4-31 del accidente de Alonso via @MotorXport

INCREDIBLE: McLarenHonda saves the engine and the gearbox of Alonso accident MP4-31 via @MotorXport

So Honda have finally produced a bullet proof engine!

[PlatinumZealot]

Wazari, we miss you!

Shall we invite the Japanese user on Autosport forums? He is well informed.

[djos]

https://twitter.com/f1writers

INCREÍBLE: McLarenHonda salva el motor y la caja de cambios del MP4-31 del accidente de Alonso via @MotorXport

INCREDIBLE: McLarenHonda saves the engine and the gearbox of Alonso accident MP4-31 via @MotorXport

So Honda have finally produced a bullet proof engine!

Bullet proof, that thing must be bomb proof! =D>

[George-Jung]

The split turbo was an ingenious concept, something that SHOULD be copied! It is easily as big of an innovation as the DD-diffusor of Brawn GP, which was of course copied by the whole paddock. Or the f-duct. Or the exhaust-blown diffusor. Or the Double DRS.

Again you can copy something but that does not necessarily mean it will work for you right off the bat. As you will have to figure out what else Mercedes have done and attempt to emulate it and that takes time. Who knows Honda might move to a split turbo design in 2017.

Part of F1 is knowing when someone else has done something really clever. If you read the Mercedes thread, there is lots of speculation about the Mercedes combustion concept (most believe they really are running incredibly stratified / lean charges).

I'm aware of thread and the speculation about what Mercedes has done. As I said above it's one thing spotting a team doing something clever it's another figuring it out, designing your own version and eventually placing into the car for use in races.

And as far as spying on Mercedes, do you REALLY believe that McLaren, the team that was fined $100M for "cheating" a while back, didn't put a borescope down into the engine? Ultrasound? Fuel consumption? Turbo design? Honda had access to all of these things. They probably even had a good idea of what kind of power they needed to make to be competitive too.

Do you really think Mercedes would have not been keeping a close watch on McLaren ? In light of what's gone on before ? I'm sure if they suspected designs or other IP had been stolen by McLaren they'd have gone to the FIA or started court action. The technology is massively important to Mercedes beyond F1.
Tbh if you want an inside scoop of what Mercedes are doing, then you have to hire Mercedes Engineers with working knowledge of all the systems. I'm sure McLaren gained some useful data on the Mercedes PU, but by the sounds of it Mercedes kept a close watch on the PU's supplied to McLaren and did not share much in terms of the fuel chemistry other than just enough to make the PU run.

But instead Honda has gone with a very different concept, one that doesn't seem to be working. Arai was sacked, and I believe a bunch of others over last two-year's engine program. Yes, they ran much better at OZ but they also had a LOT of time to get ready. Not a single team did what Merc did this year in testing, which was run a virtual SEASON in terms of mileage.

It looks like Honda will be switching it's design path later in the season. If Honda can get the design to work then they will have a good PU to challenge Mercedes with. As you should be aware by now, Honda as yet have not spent all the tokens on the PU. Not even sure they've introduced the new Turbo and compressor yet.

As for Mercedes ? They got the design correct (after Brawn apparently told the engineers to start again). Therefore they have a more mature PU and chassis package which allowed them to cover a season's worth of running in Winter testing.
Honda, Ferrari and Renault are playing catch up, while Mercedes continues to refine it's PU design.

Wasn't the team back than McLaren Mercedes.. which means that Mercedes got fined too for spying? Therefor saying that Mercedes needed to keep an eye on McLaren sounds a bit strange? Or am I completely wrong?

[diffuser]

I understand what you're saying but for clarity ...Honda does have a Split turbo design. The compressor and the turbine are separated by the MGU-H. The difference is, Honda has the compressor in the "V" of the V6.

Ferrari are very close to Merc power wise with the Compressor and turbine both at the rear .... So I'd don't buy your argument that the Merc way is the way to go. They've been ahead, not sure they're still ahead...

I actually think Merc has a chassis edge over Ferrari. The PUs look even,. In Australia anyways....the Merc Chassis was able to make the Mediums work while Ferrari couldn't. The Ferrari PU didn't let Sebastian down.

With Regards to where Honda are going with the PU, I'd be surprised that they have a new design coming. If I understand the rules, a complete redesign would require 64 tokens in 2016.

[Bence]

hemichromis, as I heard, it is still an interim, cost/token-dictated solution. As mentioned above the whole redesign would need more tokens, so the OBC decided to pull back the compressor from the V-valley (where it sits undesirably high). The mod will require remodeling of the engine cover, but they have to find the optimal balance between the aero of the wider engine cover vs. more power.

Honda pumps out engine designs like mad. When they fired up their first engine and published its audio in Oct. 2013, it was not the Size 0 engine. Then came the aero-influenced idea and they had to start from scratch.