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I am not the first person to suggest that there is a certain coincidence between various events this season, Renault (Lotus/Red Bull) and Ferrari and their respective drivers.
Simply as an exercise in futility and poking the fire as devil’s advocate, would you not agree that both (partners) Lotus and Renault have had a direct impact on the title chase this season?
Vettel failed to finish in Valencia due to an alternator malfunction and then again in Monza with a similar issue. Although he was classified as finishing 22nd, he effectively did not complete the race and failed to collect any points. Both issues caused by Renault and the lack of reliability of one of its parts. This is fact, not opinion.
In Valencia, Fernando Alonso was victorious and continued his championship chase after which he became the first driver to win two races in the first half of the 2012 season. Effectively, this was the beginning of his title charge and the first sign that Alonso was a title contender. The Spaniard, in fact, collected many points and podiums in every race this season except two (thus far). This is also fact, not opinion.
The two races in which he failed to collect points were due to his inability to complete the races. In Belgium, Alonso’s F2012 was severely molested with reckless abandon by an impetuous Romain Grosjean at the wheel of his Renault powered Lotus. By sheer coincidence, In Japan, Fernando suffered a puncture to one of his rear tyres after contact with Kimi Raikonnen, also by chance, at the wheel of a Renault powered Lotus… This is happens to be fact and not opinion as well.
By sheer chance, it just so happens that Alonso and Vettel are the two drivers battling for the crown. A battle that has been, by coincidence only, heavily influenced by Renault directly or indirectly. Somehow, the only other real contenders this season drive for McLaren which inexplicably, have had serious inconsistencies in form. At moments they seemed to be untouchable and other moments unimaginably off the pace.
The truth is, Ferrari have failed to give Fernando Alonso a car of equal or greater performance that the one inked by Newey at Red Bull. While Red Bull got off to a slow start, they are peaking at the right time. Ferrari can blame the wind tunnel and problems with scale and direct correlation but the reality is, that they will lose a title that seemed to be solely in their hands until just a few races ago.
For the sake of Formula One fans everywhere, I hope that Ferrari can answer back and give Alonso a car capable of taking the fight to Vettel. Regardless of who wins, as I have no vested interest in either party, fans want to see a fight. We all want to see real racing for this title.
Last edited by FoxHound on 31 Oct 2012, 17:53, edited 3 times in total.
Imo, I think ferrari needs to let go of raw qualy pace and focus on having a better race pace. They are not going to be able to produce a quicker car then red bull; they are more or less on par or even slightly better then the red bull in the race, and the ferrari always makes up places at the start. Improve those qualities and you get a car able to beat red bull on race day.
FoxHound wrote:
For the sake of Formula One fans everywhere, I hope that Ferrari can answer back and give Alonso a car capable of taking the fight to Vettel. Regardless of who wins, as I have no vested interest in either party, fans want to see a fight. We all want to see real racing for this title.
I think this season deserves a climatic ending. Something like Nurburgring 98 or Suzuka 00 would be great to see.
FoxHound wrote:
For the sake of Formula One fans everywhere, I hope that Ferrari can answer back and give Alonso a car capable of taking the fight to Vettel. Regardless of who wins, as I have no vested interest in either party, fans want to see a fight. We all want to see real racing for this title.
I think this season deserves a climatic ending. Something like Nurburgring 98 or Suzuka 00 would be great to see.
FoxHound wrote:The Red Bull has very clearly been a better car than the Ferrari.
If you want confirmation of this, look at the No2 drivers for the respective teams.
4. Mark Webber 167
9. Felipe Massa 89
I'm surprised no one mentions this, when comparing Massa to Alonso - how many times has Massa's race been compromised in order to give his team-mate an advantage? I'm not talking about 'moving-over' orders, but more subtle things like bringing Massa in early to see how a tyre performs that could give them more information during the race on how to give Alonso the best possible chance. Or getting Massa to perform extraordinary maneuvers to somehow give Alonso a tow in qualifying (which hasn't really worked yet this year). This are all small little things, but can have a huge influence on the physic of a driver (who's already struggling) and the points he was able to get.
How many times was Webbers race compromised in any way?
While I'm sure it's debatable how much of a true influence Massas situation has been - I'm sure there's no question how much pressure he is under - not only in the mental state he has been all year (but improving), but also knowing how much he has to support his teammate. Perhaps, if he had performed better, his team hadn't put him in the position he is in, but it's kind of a chicken-egg situation really.
I think Webber has been given a lot better fighting odds at RedBull, even though the team might be on young Vettels side.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
Ferrari is Alonso's team no question. But in similar vein, and on countback Red Bull are behind Vettel to the point it makes no difference.
At the start of the year, Vettel's form was erratic because the car was erratic. Not enough data for their however many iterations of exhaust etc. But once the car was clearly best, Vettel comes to the fore. This here is my issue.
Alonso has had an erratic car all year, with only a couple of GP where you could say, yea the car was the class of the field. Be it McLaren or Red Bull their drivers have had better equipment for longer periods of time.
I would also say that Alonso has profited from slip ups the other teams have made. But should he be castigated for opportunism? Of course not.
Is Alonso driving a donkey? No. His Ferrari is on balance a very good car. But I dont think anyone can honestly say that on balance, Ferrari have had the best car. McLaren and Red Bull have had better, and McLaren would be in this fight too had it not been for their "issues".
jdlive wrote:
Ferrari had as fast a car over the course of the entire season, Mclaren had a faster car over the course of the entire season. It's Button and Hamilton that are lacking in quality. Put Webber and Vettel in this years' Mclaren and they'd be 1 and 2 in the drivers championship and 1 in the constructors.
I'm afraid I cannot agree with this assessment of yours.
There have only been 2 McLaren fastest laps. There have been 5 Red Bull fastest laps and 0 for Ferrari.
There have been 6 Red Bull poles compared to McLaren's 6, and Ferrari's 2.
There have been 7 Red Bull victories compared to 5 for McLaren and 3 for Ferrari.
There have been 12 podiums for Red Bull, and 11 for McLaren and 10 for Ferrari.
McLaren have suffered appalling reliability, that regardless of the driver they would still suffer. So to say Hamilton and Button are lacking in quality does a)not take into account they have suffered 5 retirements, 2 of them whilst leading and Red Bull have only suffered 1 official retirement.
If Ferrari have has "as fast a car" as Red bull during 2012, would Alonso( abetter driver than Vettel in my opinion) not have as good a qualifying record as Vettel? Would Massa not have a comparable record to Webber?
Of course, they dont. What does this tell you?
This tells me nothing, Alonso and Massa aren't fast qualifiers, Webber and Vettel are. RB goes for a pure qualifying setup, Ferrari doesn't.
Red Bull had only 1 retirement?!
"There is a credit card with the Ferrari logo, issued by Santander, which gives the scuderia a % of purchases made with the card...
I would guess that such a serious amount of money would allow them to ignore the constant complains of a car that was nowhere near as bad as their #1 driver tried to sell throughout the season.
Heck, a car on which Massa finishes in the podium or has to lift so that his teammate finishes ahead (As we saw often in the final races of the year) is, by no means, a "bad" car."
ParanoiD wrote:good thing is that Vettel and Alonso still trying to respect each other.
Everyone agrees that Alonso is driver of the year. But if he cant win it, I can't imagine how emotional it will be at the prize giving (or even at Brazil).
If he ends up at place 2, he is certainly not "driver of the year". This almost sounds like an emo-post. The winner takes it all, including the "driver of the year" award if there is such a thing
"There is a credit card with the Ferrari logo, issued by Santander, which gives the scuderia a % of purchases made with the card...
I would guess that such a serious amount of money would allow them to ignore the constant complains of a car that was nowhere near as bad as their #1 driver tried to sell throughout the season.
Heck, a car on which Massa finishes in the podium or has to lift so that his teammate finishes ahead (As we saw often in the final races of the year) is, by no means, a "bad" car."
turbof1 wrote:Imo, I think ferrari needs to let go of raw qualy pace and focus on having a better race pace. They are not going to be able to produce a quicker car then red bull; they are more or less on par or even slightly better then the red bull in the race, and the ferrari always makes up places at the start. Improve those qualities and you get a car able to beat red bull on race day.
Intelligent post.
Besides, even if they got their qualifying setup spot on, there is no way Alonso is going to consistently beat Vettel over 1 lap, that's his territory.
"There is a credit card with the Ferrari logo, issued by Santander, which gives the scuderia a % of purchases made with the card...
I would guess that such a serious amount of money would allow them to ignore the constant complains of a car that was nowhere near as bad as their #1 driver tried to sell throughout the season.
Heck, a car on which Massa finishes in the podium or has to lift so that his teammate finishes ahead (As we saw often in the final races of the year) is, by no means, a "bad" car."
turbof1 wrote:Imo, I think ferrari needs to let go of raw qualy pace and focus on having a better race pace. They are not going to be able to produce a quicker car then red bull; they are more or less on par or even slightly better then the red bull in the race, and the ferrari always makes up places at the start. Improve those qualities and you get a car able to beat red bull on race day.
You definitely have something there. What Alonso and Ferrari need to focus on isn't trying to catch Red Bull to pole, it's staying just ahead of Mclaren in qualifying, ideally keeping Massa between Alo and them.
That being said, I do hope Ferrari isn't listening in, I've still got to beat Websta in the InterForum League, and I wouldn't mind Red Bull 1-2s for the rest of the season.
jdlive wrote:This tells me nothing, Alonso and Massa aren't fast qualifiers, Webber and Vettel are. RB goes for a pure qualifying setup, Ferrari doesn't.
Red Bull had only 1 retirement?!
Funny that this "pure qualifying set up" has resulted in more victories, podiums and more fastest laps for Red Bull. Why on earth don't Ferrari try this wonderous "pure qualifying set up" you speak of?
Officially yes, Red Bull have only 1 retirement, as they where classified as finishers in Italy.
I still think there is a lot of speculation wrapped as the truth, when it comes to driver performance. F1 is a competition in building and racing the fastest car. There is no doubt that the car is more important than the driver. But it is impossible to separate the performance of driver and car to compare to drivers, until they are racing with the same car. As far as I know there are no direct or indirect comparison that can be made to compare Alonso and Vettel.
Massa and Kimi were pretty equal when they raced for Ferrari. And Massa also pretty much matched Alonso at the beginning of 2010. If Massa had been allowed to beat Alonso in Germany in 2010, the score would have been 116 points for Alonso and 92 points for Massa after that race. After the race at Spa, Massa would have had 116 points, while Alonso would have had 132 points. That is not a big difference, and as we saw with Kimi and Massa from 2007 to 2008, things can turn around within such small margins. But since Germany 2010 Massa has stopped performing at Alonso's level. There has been some speculation on whether his accident in 2009 somehow is playing its part in Massas rather poor performance. And this may be a factor that has reduced his competitiveness. But also, I am quite sure that not being allowed to win in Germany in 2010 has played its part. Massa hadn't won a race since 2008 and in 2010 he had just come back from a serious injury. When they arrived in Germany, Massa had had a difficult time with 3 races without scoring any points and when he was about to turn everything around, he was denied the victory by his own team.
I am not saying that Massa isn't allowed to win by Ferrari, I am quite sure that they start each season on equal terms and at the start of both 2010 and 2011, Massa stole points away from Alonso. But I believe the psychology is a more important factor than most people seem to think. A top athlete needs to belive in himself and he needs the people around him to believe in him too. But at Ferrari there is no doubt that most people believe more in Alonso. As late as in Korea, Massa was instructed to keep away from Alonso. I am sure he tries to see the positives in the fact that he was faster than Alonso, but the negative side is still very obvious. Alonso is probably a better driver than Massa, so it's difficult to blame the team for supporting their title contender. But the difference gets amplified by Ferrari's philosophy.
For the above mentioned reasons, I don't think that Massa's performance is a good indication on the performance of the Ferrari. In my opinion it is not reasonable to assume that for example Kimi Raikkonen, who performed pretty similar to Massa at Ferrari, has twice as many points as Massa because Lotus has had a better car than Ferrari this year. This would have been a logical assumption: Kimi and Massa are evenly matched, so the difference in points must be due to their cars. But I think it's not that simple.
My conclusion is that any claims that Red Bull has been better than Ferrari over the whole season, are still based on pure speculation. There is no way we can tell if Alonso would have taken more or less points than Vettel if he had been sitting in a Red Bull this year. By the way, there is no way to tell if Vettel is faster than Alonso over one lap or not as well. I am quite sure that Red Bull has been better than Ferrari for the last few races. But then we have also seen that Vettel has won the last few races, so his performance has been impeccable. Claims that Vettel is helpless without the fastest car simply seems a bit dumb after this season. Vettel had a puncture in Malysia which dropped him from 4th to 11th. Then his car broke down in Valencia and Italy. Apart from that he has never finished worse than 6th. Vettel only has one 6th place and two 5th places this year. The rest of the races he has finished in the top 4. And if you look at Webber's results and Webber's speed, it is obvious that Red Bull has had far from the best car in several races.
