Mercedes W17

[AR3-GP]

I had initially thought the actuator was underperforming and perhaps the reason for Antonelli's lockup towards the end of the race. However I later realised both cars had been doing this all race. It appears to function at its slowest rate at the car's highest speed.

That's when the air resistance is at its greatest so no wonder it takes longer. Doesn't mean that it's intentional, might just need to beef the mechanism up a little.

It's a hydraulic system so I wonder if there has been some kind of "fluid hammer" occurring inside the lines.

The other explanation could be that they don't want to abruptly change the load at the front because it causes a pitching motion that unloads the rear tires and bottoms the front of the bib. Drivers were complaining about bottoming in Bahrain.

[michl420]

I had initially thought the actuator was underperforming and perhaps the reason for Antonelli's lockup towards the end of the race. However I later realised both cars had been doing this all race. It appears to function at its slowest rate at the car's highest speed.

That's when the air resistance is at its greatest so no wonder it takes longer. Doesn't mean that it's intentional, might just need to beef the mechanism up a little.

It's a hydraulic system so I wonder if there has been some kind of "fluid hammer" occurring inside the lines.

The other explanation could be that they don't want to abruptly change the load at the front because it causes a pitching motion that unloads the rear tires and bottoms the front of the bib. Drivers were complaining about bottoming in Bahrain.

I think it was Toto Wolf who mentioned that the front wing problem has something to do with a gas leak there. It implies that there system works with gas/air.
And so this variable closing time depending on speed fits very good with this.

[AR3-GP]

That's when the air resistance is at its greatest so no wonder it takes longer. Doesn't mean that it's intentional, might just need to beef the mechanism up a little.

It's a hydraulic system so I wonder if there has been some kind of "fluid hammer" occurring inside the lines.

The other explanation could be that they don't want to abruptly change the load at the front because it causes a pitching motion that unloads the rear tires and bottoms the front of the bib. Drivers were complaining about bottoming in Bahrain.

I think it was Toto Wolf who mentioned that the front wing problem has something to do with a gas leak there. It implies that there system works with gas/air.
And so this variable closing time depending on speed fits very good with this.

That would be clever. A pneumatic system would be lighter than a hydraulic system, because air is lighter than hydraulic fluid. I wonder if they moved to air in the rear wing mechanism as well?

[GrizzleBoy]

If gas was being used, maybe some excess pressure could be "bled" .....or "blown" into some areas that might accidemtally provide some benefits.......

[johnnycesup]

That would be clever. A pneumatic system would be lighter than a hydraulic system, because air is lighter than hydraulic fluid. I wonder if they moved to air in the rear wing mechanism as well?

On the other hand, there are other hydraulic systems in the car (so there's a pump somewhere), and with the ban on pneumatic valves, there is no pneumatic system anymore as far as I know (so no compressor). Is the difference between the working fluid's weight enough to compensate for the inclusion of a compressor / reservoir and so on?

[PlatinumZealot]

The teams are prefectly free to use variable closing times depending on circumstance.

Even if it takes longer than 400ms?

How does that work with the "Formula 1 Cars must comply with these regulations in their entirety at all times during a Competition" rule?

Never said that. I said within the 400ms the rate of closing characteristic doesn't have to be linear nor the identical closing rate each time.

[AR3-GP]

That would be clever. A pneumatic system would be lighter than a hydraulic system, because air is lighter than hydraulic fluid. I wonder if they moved to air in the rear wing mechanism as well?

On the other hand, there are other hydraulic systems in the car (so there's a pump somewhere), and with the ban on pneumatic valves, there is no pneumatic system anymore as far as I know (so no compressor). Is the difference between the working fluid's weight enough to compensate for the inclusion of a compressor / reservoir and so on?

I don't think there's a ban on pneumatic valves.

C8.2.5 Pneumatic valve pressure may only be controlled via a passive mechanical regulator or from the
FIA Standard ECU and its operation will be monitored by the FIA Standard ECU.

There is also discussion of pneumatic pressure vessels in the regulations.

[Farnborough]

That would be clever. A pneumatic system would be lighter than a hydraulic system, because air is lighter than hydraulic fluid. I wonder if they moved to air in the rear wing mechanism as well?

On the other hand, there are other hydraulic systems in the car (so there's a pump somewhere), and with the ban on pneumatic valves, there is no pneumatic system anymore as far as I know (so no compressor). Is the difference between the working fluid's weight enough to compensate for the inclusion of a compressor / reservoir and so on?

I don't think there's a ban on pneumatic valves.

C8.2.5 Pneumatic valve pressure may only be controlled via a passive mechanical regulator or from the
FIA Standard ECU and its operation will be monitored by the FIA Standard ECU.

There is also discussion of pneumatic pressure vessels in the regulations.

A significant attribute of pneumatic system is that purging can be easily built in to operating facilities in coping with coupling/leaks etc. Hydraulic can too, but more involved and with any leak potentially more problematic.

Pneumatic can be pos or neg (vacuum) in design and operation. Accumulator and pump would be typical, but compressor can be electrical in power source.

Did TW comment on a leak during China ? Slow characteristics COULD be affected by recharge rate after maximum battery depletion and recovery takes place if accumulator has low size and buffering capacity of system.

Were the old DRS pneumatic in operation ?

[johnnycesup]

I don't think there's a ban on pneumatic valves.

C8.2.5 Pneumatic valve pressure may only be controlled via a passive mechanical regulator or from the
FIA Standard ECU and its operation will be monitored by the FIA Standard ECU.

There is also discussion of pneumatic pressure vessels in the regulations.

Yup, my mistake, I thought the whole pneumatic element in the engine was outlawed, but it's still there.

[Smokes]

I wouldn't want to cast that, it's all very thin, takes a lot of effort to get good quality on parts like that. My guess would be that it's welded together from multiple parts.

I believe these sorts of motorsport wheels are centrifugally cast.. Magnesium so not sure if that can be welded easily.
The hollow spokes appeared with Mercedes first for sure. Can't remember if it was 2012 or 2017 or sometime like that though!

Or a lost wax vacuum casting, definitely not a welded piece

Probably forged to create the hollow spokes the then spun flow formed to create the rim.

see link
https://www.fuchsfelge.com/en/the-fuchs ... ocess.html

[Farnborough]

I believe these sorts of motorsport wheels are centrifugally cast.. Magnesium so not sure if that can be welded easily.
The hollow spokes appeared with Mercedes first for sure. Can't remember if it was 2012 or 2017 or sometime like that though!

Or a lost wax vacuum casting, definitely not a welded piece

Probably forged to create the hollow spokes the then spun flow formed to create the rim.

see link
https://www.fuchsfelge.com/en/the-fuchs ... ocess.html

No, not as far as can be seen from that process.

Could be wrong, but those Fuchs wheel design don't have hollow spokes, they are open backed from memory.

These F1 items are hollow, as in tubed form, making forging in that orientation far more complex/doubtful.

[mzso]

Never said that. I said within the 400ms the rate of closing characteristic doesn't have to be linear nor the identical closing rate each time.

But it seems too slow though.

[.poz]

Antonelli's car does it too at 5:22 in the sprint qualifying highlights

The wing clearly performs a two-phase motion: an initial instantaneous step followed by a slow secondary movement.

Look at the video at x0.25 speed

[mzso]

The wing clearly performs a two-phase motion: an initial instantaneous step followed by a slow secondary movement.

Look at the video at x0.25 speed

Seems bluntly illegal to me, to be honest.

[AR3-GP]

The wing clearly performs a two-phase motion: an initial instantaneous step followed by a slow secondary movement.

Look at the video at x0.25 speed

Seems bluntly illegal to me, to be honest.

I'm surprised that no one protested it.