2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[RedNEO]

If what you say is correct then they should have had no problem giving Redbull engines if they knew they could control there performance on any given day.

Can't you see what did RBR with that much power deficit. Can't you see what would happen even if RBR have 20 Hp less powered merc PU? Can you see mclaren in that level in near future?

I don't care about any of that, the only thing I want to see is a McLaren with Alonso not being held back by its engine. Sure Mercedes will have an advantage but for me the pro's of a merc powered McLaren outweigh the pro's of a Honda powered McLaren.

[etusch]

See that but it is just wish. We will see what happens but you can wish it with Honda too as long as it is just wish. We just can see by living what real world bring.
At the and a WDC with legend Mclaren Honda is better than 2 or 3 with McLaren Mercedes. Especially after so much trouble.

[Big Mangalhit]

Well I can't disagree with that. The best short term solution if of course changing for the Merc PU probably as soon as this summer. But I share the opinion of Ron Dennis that they can't win without the work status. I actually think RB is better of with the Renault PU than with a merc at least for know, that might change if the Renault factory team becomes competitive and RB lose the priority of information on everything.

So in my opinion:
short term MERC pu
long term work team status.

The thing here is that you are probably not a fan of Mclaren only of Alonso so you don't care if Mclaren gets stuck in the midfield for the next ten years if that gives them a huge boost now, and I respect that everyone as a different preference and opinion nothing wrong with that.

Also I can be totally wrong and the Honda PU will never get sorted, hard to tell

[RedNEO]

Well I can't disagree with that. The best short term solution if of course changing for the Merc PU probably as soon as this summer. But I share the opinion of Ron Dennis that they can't win without the work status. I actually think RB is better of with the Renault PU than with a merc at least for know, that might change if the Renault factory team becomes competitive and RB lose the priority of information on everything.

So in my opinion:
short term MERC pu
long term work team status.

The thing here is that you are probably not a fan of Mclaren only of Alonso so you don't care if Mclaren gets stuck in the midfield for the next ten years if that gives them a huge boost now, and I respect that everyone as a different preference and opinion nothing wrong with that.

Also I can be totally wrong and the Honda PU will never get sorted, hard to tell

I like both.
I don't see this as just a short term benefit. There has been no evidence that Honda can build a world class engine anytime soon. Works or not that won't fix the main problem, it's more deep rooted then just being a matter of time. Just look at the last three years.

Something to also consider is with McLaren Honda this isn't an in-house works operation like the other works teams. So I wouldn't even consider this a traditional works team, it operates more like a partnership.

[Andres125sx]

Eventually you have to stop waiting for the impossible and act. F1 doesn't wait around for anyone and if Honda really had this miracle engine they would have produced the engine in Canada.

Sorry but I can´t see any logic in this. Any reason it should have been ready for Canada and that would have been good but if it´s ready for Baku it´s bad?

I think it's the right choice actually going with Mercedes will mean they also keep Alonso and Prodromou

Alonso left Ferrari because he was tired of fighting for second. I can´t see how McLaren-Mercedes would be better or it would motivate Alonso to stay.

Actually I think that decision would instantly put Alonso out of F1

You're forgetting or ignoring the GPS data. This McLaren with a decent engine can fight for wins.

Can you please point me to that GPS data wich proves McLaren chassis is better to Mercedes? Because that´s a must if they want to compete against Mercedes with their PU

[Andres125sx]

a merc engine in a mclaren can beat a w0x car on any given weekend. I really dont see the logic of why so many beleive there is some glass ceiling preventing this from happening.
Mercedes engines are the same for all customers. Merc may get the updates earlier, but we aren't talking about 50 horsepower updates here. I dare say a mcalren with a good chassis, that is setup better than a mercedes can whoop it any weekend without an updated engine.
I've seen too many times in the past where williams have threatened mercedes occasionally, even with their vanilla chassis. Now imagine a more aggressive and tractive mcalren chassis?
Come on guys, i expect deeper analysis from you on this works engine thing.
Mclaren should grab the mercedes engine with both hands, and prepare to fight for a championship with it. Redbull can win with a lesser engine than a customer merc, so dont see why mclaren cant with the merc engine.

Agree, with a better chasis they can fight for wins ocassionally, but none McLaren or Alonso would be happy with ocasional victories, and that´s if they can build a better chassis to Mercedes, wich is a big if, but even so, no enough for McLaren and Alonso targets

Redbull can win with a lesser engine than a customer merc, so dont see why mclaren cant with the merc engine.

Then let me point you at some important fact you didn´t take into account. When RBR won with a lesser engine they never fought against the works team of their PU supplier, so Renault did everything they could to provide RBR the best PU they were able to provide.

Also, you can´t use Newey awesome work as a reference implying any other team can do the same. He´s a genius and those cars were awesome, assuming any team can do the same and build a chassis wich is so much better to the rest they can win the title with a lesser engine is a pretty big assumption

[ZakB]

Even if McLaren beats Mercedes, they can still say just look at how good our engine is, last year they couldn't even score points. McLaren just needs to be back at the front, winning champions or not, i'm pretty sure they will be mighty happy if they score their first podium since (too) many years. Everything will change after 2020, so it's now time to enjoy those coming years instead of running at the back with Honda. The shareholders already said that the money will be there, even without Honda.

[Andres125sx]

If Mercedes thinks there's even a remote chance that McLaren might beat them with their own engine, then it won't happen.
If Mercedes does sell engines to McLaren, it's because they firmly believe that McLaren is not a threat.

The thing is, this is a non-zero-sum game. Red Bull are better than the Merc customers in every way except the engine. Of course they're beating them! They have better drivers and they have a better chassis, which makes up for an engine deficit. But Mercedes, Mercedes is on a whole different level. We're not talking about beating the midfield, who run on middling budgets. We're talking about Mercedes, the team that has dominated the sport since 2014 and has the backing of a multi-billion dollar corporation. McLaren would need to beat Mercedes in both the chassis and the driver department to even have a shred of hope of winning with the same engine. And if recent history is any indication, it won't happen.

Mercedes can vastly outspend McLaren, and that's considering that McLaren are getting their engines for free. What would their budget look like if they lose Honda's $100m AND the free engines? Oh yeah, that engine money would now be going to Mercedes, the team they have to beat. Can sponsorships offset that? Perhaps, but then again, McLaren lost many of their biggest sponsors even before Honda came in the picture.

My personal opinion is that there's a better chance of Honda making a competitive engine than McLaren beating Mercedes with their own engine, which is why I support McLaren sticking with Honda.

+1

This is F1, if there´s a battle for the title between Mercedes and any other team with a Mercedes PU, I would expect some misterious PU problems / missed perfomance for the customer team. These PU are extremely complicated, I´m sure there must be a million ways to decrease PU perfomance, or efficiency, without FIA noticing, and within the rules

And I wouldn´t blame them, when a company invest millions to develop their products it´s to make some profit and get some good PR, not to let their competitors make some profit and get some good PR while they´re bashed because of being beated by a satelite team

Some ocassional victories? Yes, that´s doable, but that´s not McLaren nor Alonso targets
Fighting for WDC and WCC? No way. Once they think that team can fight them for the titles I can see some unexpected problems, sup-par mappings, production problems to supply the customer team with the latest upgrade....

[marvin78]

And Alonso would not agree to drive with the Mercedes engine. At least if you believe what he said after leaving Ferrari. He doesn't want to be second.

[Andres125sx]

That´s the reason I said IMO McLaren signing a contract with Mercedes would put Alonso instantly out of F1

[RedNEO]

And Alonso would not agree to drive with the Mercedes engine. At least if you believe what he said after leaving Ferrari. He doesn't want to be second.

He was driving a car that was at best third best sometimes as bad as 4th/5th or even worse and he did well with it but Ferrari were lost in aero for so long with there correlation issues. This is nothing like that so comparing the two situations is pointless.

•McLaren is not lost in aero correlation problems

• They couped Prodromou from Redbull and now have a strong aero team and all there updates work and give Alonso the confidence he needs to push 100%

• If you actually pay attention to what Alonso is saying today not 3 years ago you would understand what would motivate to him sign a new contract with McLaren

[marvin78]

He was? From what data do you get that? Let's be a bit realistic and say the car was sometimes second best, sometimes best and sometimes a little bit worse (as I don't believe this "Alonso is a god" BS, I think that he is an outstanding driver but he couldn't beat physics and win races with a very bad car). Then you have the situation you could get (no one knows these things for sure) with McLaren and Mercedes. Why is that not comparable? I understand that you like Alonso very much. That's ok but a little bit more realism wouldn't hurt you.

[RedNEO]

He was? From what data do you get that? Let's be a bit realistic and say the car was sometimes second best, sometimes best and sometimes a little bit worse (as I don't believe this "Alonso is a god" BS, I think that he is an outstanding driver but he couldn't beat physics and win races with a very bad car). Then you have the situation you could get (no one knows these things for sure) with McLaren and Mercedes. Why is that not comparable? I understand that you like Alonso very much. That's ok but a little bit more realism wouldn't hurt you.

Maybe you have a short memory or where busy looking at something else at the time but Ferrari produced a couple of dogs back in Alonso's time with them like the f2012 and let's not forget the F14. It's just that Alonso clearly flattered those cars like he's doing again with the underpowered Honda engine. Just look at where he's team mates were. A great car is easy to drive which brings the gap to your team mate down. Alonso can handle bad cars better. And I'm not the one who called him a God, that's just an old straw man arguement from people who dislike people giving him praise.

[Jolle]

Mercedes just simply have a better relationship with McLaren since they have partnered before and I don't think it would be considered awful if McLaren Mercedes was battling them for the championship instead of a Ferrari.

That's just it.... they weren't partners. Mercedes was the largest shareholder of McLaren and they choose to sell McLaren in favour of their own team. it looks like they have a strict policy not to supply teams who's budget and possibilities are anywhere near their works team. Thats why they didn't want to supply RedBull and won't supply McLaren as long as they have a works team budget.

It almost looks like their last split with Honda, where the dominant engine was Renault and they couldn't get it and were stuck with a customer Ford engine, which was even worse then the one in the back of the Benneton before partnering with Peugeot...

In the early 2000's Ferrari and Mercedes shaped F1 like it is now, you need a partner that bring in more cash then a normal sponsor can provide. The freezing of the engines during the V8's gave a short opportunity for other contenders, but now it's big cash rules again. In the past McLaren had Philip Morris and then Mercedes who provided that.

Their sportscar business might even hurt them in this case, preventing possible automotive partners like Porsche/VAG to join the party.

Maybe it's time for them to have a McLaren PU in the back?

[j.yank]

a merc engine in a mclaren can beat a w0x car on any given weekend. I really dont see the logic of why so many beleive there is some glass ceiling preventing this from happening.
Mercedes engines are the same for all customers. Merc may get the updates earlier, but we aren't talking about 50 horsepower updates here. I dare say a mcalren with a good chassis, that is setup better than a mercedes can whoop it any weekend without an updated engine.
I've seen too many times in the past where williams have threatened mercedes occasionally, even with their vanilla chassis. Now imagine a more aggressive and tractive mcalren chassis?
Come on guys, i expect deeper analysis from you on this works engine thing.
Mclaren should grab the mercedes engine with both hands, and prepare to fight for a championship with it. Redbull can win with a lesser engine than a customer merc, so dont see why mclaren cant with the merc engine.

100 % right. People have forgot or just lie to themselves how good McLaren can be and take any opportunity to undermine them. I'm looking forward to McLaren getting Mercedes engines even more now so those people can be shutdown. Alonso will be on it and the lack of power isn't going to hold back the chassis anymore so prod can work his magic!

We don't know how much of the McLaren chassis performance is due to aerodynamic of Promodrou or because of the specifics of Honda engine. They claim that their PU is most compact and most lightweight from all PUs, so this should give them some advantage. In any case, the integration with Mercedes Pu will not be so straightforward.