2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[gruntguru]

To have that amount of recovery they would, no doubt, have front MGU(s) and a rear mounted MGU.

I think that if 450kW was the MGU power, a system of 3 150kW could be used - 2 on the front axle and one on the rear.

That would help balance the braking front to rear. The ICE could be smaller, maybe a V4 of ~1.0L. This would help save some weight.

With a turbo and fuel flow restrictions, the size of the ICE doesn't really matter. Making it smaller, only makes it more expensive and less reliable because of the smaller area to cool the cylinders.

If you follow the logic in Wuzak's post the ICE power (and fuel flow) could be reduced in line with displacement. There is a lot more recovered energy and electric power available.

[NL_Fer]

With a turbo and fuel flow restrictions, the size of the ICE doesn't really matter. Making it smaller, only makes it more expensive and less reliable because of the smaller area to cool the cylinders.

But if they reduce the flow, displacement and cilinders at the same rate. They could continue to use/develop current cilinder design, instead of redesign from scratch.

[Steven]

I'm not convinced any continuation in cylinder development is possible given they're likely going to use a completely different fuel.

No matter if bore and or stroke remain the same, if fuel flow is reduced, or fuel is dramatically changed, you'll always need the same sort of development to optimise combustion. Leaving some parameters the same is unlikely to have a considerable effect on development costs I think (but I'm not an engine designer)

[JordanMugen]

But can they make a turbo engine weigh less than what it does now?

Even if it was an inline-four like the original FIA world engine plan it would weigh less, wouldn't it?

A V4 should weigh less than a V6 too, but to a lesser extent.

Dissipating the same amount of (heat) energy over half the surface area is a challenge and would make everything a lot hotter inside the engine.

The 1.05 V4 would only produce 1.05/1.6 times as much power though (with fuel flow reduced from 110 kg/hour to ~72 kg/hour).

So about 550hp (down from 840hp?), with 450hp from the electrical system instead of just 160 hp from the electrical system.

If they are planning to keep a V6 (as they seem to be saying), I don't quite understand how they are going to be able to increase electrical power "significantly" while keeping the total power output the same?

Lowering the fuel flow does (and could be done cheaply with the current engines as base, you just need a smaller compressor for less boost).

So they will keep the engines the same, but just lower the fuel flow?

Won't less energy going through the combustion engine make them sound even worse though, in direction contradiction to the goal of a "more emotive" power unit?

Adding "cars must not be longer than 4.5m" to the regulations would accomplish length reduction much more simply, and with a lot more certainty.

Given the maximum length of the front and rear overhangs is specified, what difference does it make compared to just giving a maximum wheelbase (as the 2022 rules will do instead)?

[JordanMugen]

Exactly! If they are there for recovery it makes sense to really utilise them!

Hub motors

But I don't want AWD Formula One cars, what kind of spectacle would that (not) be.

It's fun to see F1 cars being snappy on the throttle. To take that away would be a shame... Too many of the proposals seem to be engineering-driven ("this would be an optimal solution"), rather than based on what is good for F1 as a show?

[JordanMugen]

McLaren also just produced a 120° V6 with hot vee turbos, for the Artura
https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/ ... 80x551.jpg

Interesting choice of an angle, presumably just for packaging reasons?

It should give a better sound than gruff sounding 90-degree V6 twin-turbos. Would the sound be as musical as a 60-degree V6, or close to the sonorous wail of a flat-six?

The Artua does seem to sound a little bit like a flat-six, which is nice: https://youtu.be/fFB1A72H6fE?t=372

[JordanMugen]

a 450 kW ICE driving a 450 kW generator driving MGs/ES of 750 kW capability .... weighs how much ???

I like the idea of fitting Grand Prix cars with a turbine generator, which runs permanently at maximum efficiency.

You get electric drive, with the energy density of liquid fuels.

[mzso]

Even if it was an inline-four like the original FIA world engine plan it would weigh less, wouldn't it?

A single cylinder engine even more so.

Given the maximum length of the front and rear overhangs is specified, what difference does it make compared to just giving a maximum wheelbase (as the 2022 rules will do instead)?

Less pointless waste of waste of words
Then again, why didn't they restrict these parameters more?

But I don't want AWD Formula One cars, what kind of spectacle would that (not) be.

This is a variant of the "ewww it's different" sort of arguments. With no real foundation.

[Stu]

a 450 kW ICE driving a 450 kW generator driving MGs/ES of 750 kW capability .... weighs how much ???

I like the idea of fitting Grand Prix cars with a turbine generator, which runs permanently at maximum efficiency.

You get electric drive, with the energy density of liquid fuels.

I also like that solution, the FIA are all-in for road relevance, it would make a very good solution for long-range road haulage and trains; if the fuels used are sustainable, it would be great!!

[Jolle]

a 450 kW ICE driving a 450 kW generator driving MGs/ES of 750 kW capability .... weighs how much ???

I like the idea of fitting Grand Prix cars with a turbine generator, which runs permanently at maximum efficiency.

You get electric drive, with the energy density of liquid fuels.

I also like that solution, the FIA are all-in for road relevance, it would make a very good solution for long-range road haulage and trains; if the fuels used are sustainable, it would be great!!

Certain diesel trains are already operating like that for decades. For a racing car not a nice solution, because just a big constant “whoooo” sounds independent from speed, throttle position or change of direction. Like watching a football match with vuvenselas in the stands.

[mzso]

a 450 kW ICE driving a 450 kW generator driving MGs/ES of 750 kW capability .... weighs how much ???

I like the idea of fitting Grand Prix cars with a turbine generator, which runs permanently at maximum efficiency.

You get electric drive, with the energy density of liquid fuels.

I also like that solution, the FIA are all-in for road relevance, it would make a very good solution for long-range road haulage and trains; if the fuels used are sustainable, it would be great!!

I was bashed for bringing turbines up, for they are inefficient in such small sizes that F1 would use.

Plus the issue raised in the earliest quote. Weight of the turbine plus a big generator and an even bigger motor.

[bergie88]

I'm not convinced any continuation in cylinder development is possible given they're likely going to use a completely different fuel.

No matter if bore and or stroke remain the same, if fuel flow is reduced, or fuel is dramatically changed, you'll always need the same sort of development to optimise combustion. Leaving some parameters the same is unlikely to have a considerable effect on development costs I think (but I'm not an engine designer)

This might be attractive for any new engine manufacturers as well, given the fact that only small changes to the current engine concept will give the current manufacturers a huge edge over new entrants (which will be there anyway, but will decline with more and more changes to the current concept)

[garrett]

Interesting choice of an angle, presumably just for packaging reasons?

Maybe that 120 version could play a distinct role if the MGU-H is abolished, which seems to be very likely to happen?

If you want to have a simpler, cheaper and noisier PU like it is conceived, that would be an obvious first step.

An italian source reported that: As you know, there was a meeting at Spielberg after Saturday qualifying featuring all current manufacturers plus, not really surprising, representatives from VAG.

There was broad agreement that the current V6 hybrid PU should be kept for costs sake, powered by sustainable fuels. Also, not really surprising, Audi and Porsche would like to see an increased proportion of electric components. Naturally, the disadvantage of being the NKOTB has to be equalized: So, a proposal was made to use 4WD, the front axle being solely driven by electric power. Reminiscenses to existing WEC projects are obvious. But if you want to increase electric power but getting rid of the MGU-H, that could be the way to go?

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-po ... i/6624347/

[Jolle]

Interesting choice of an angle, presumably just for packaging reasons?

Maybe that 120 version could play a distinct role if the MGU-H is abolished, which seems to be very likely to happen?

If you want to have a simpler, cheaper and noisier PU like it is conceived, that would be an obvious first step.

An italian source reported that: As you know, there was a meeting at Spielberg after Saturday qualifying featuring all current manufacturers plus, not really surprising, representatives from VAG.

There was broad agreement that the current V6 hybrid PU should be kept for costs sake, powered by sustainable fuels. Also, not really surprising, Audi and Porsche would like to see an increased proportion of electric components. Naturally, the disadvantage of being the NKOTB has to be equalized: So, a proposal was made to use 4WD, the front axle being solely driven by electric power. Reminiscenses to existing WEC projects are obvious. But if you want to increase electric power but getting rid of the MGU-H, that could be the way to go?

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-po ... i/6624347/

I don’t see them stepping away from the H unit. It’s one of innovations that set F1 apart from any other series. As for VW AG, they already used half an H unit on the Porsche LM cars. Daimler even start using it in their road cars now.

[NL_Fer]

AWD is stupid, but I still believe the front motors can have less cooling requirements if they are used as brake recovery only.

Since braking is only 1-2s per braking moment.

But honestly, didn’t they create the current formula to address VW/Audi, to compete. With them backing out eventually?