Sauber F1 Team 2015

[Glyn]

If I was VDG I wouldn't even want to drive for a team that chose someone else over me.... He's an idiot.

The answer..... drive faster when you get a chance. Skills that pay the bills.

[aral]

Any truth in the rumour that VDG is now going to sue Ferrari for not offering him a seat.....then there is Merc....then.........................? All these teams are preventing him from becoming the next WDC ! Shocking.

[George-Jung]

If I was VDG I wouldn't even want to drive for a team that chose someone else over me.... He's an idiot.

The answer..... drive faster when you get a chance. Skills that pay the bills.

Easy for you to say; you do not have people backing you up with lots of financial resources.. and than get dumped, because Sauber gets more money from two other pay-drivers..

And regarding driving faster.. etc.. most of the time even the best drivers don't get promoted to F1 without financial support.
Have a look for example at Robin Frijns.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Frijns
this guy has talent.. but we do not see him in F1.. because he hasn't have enough financial support.

[bdr529]

Here's how we can avoid this in the future- NO MORE PAID DRIVES. I know it's not that simple but.....

+1

All this drama about a driver who paid for a seat and never ever looked like a potential F1-winner. It's all such a waste of time...

His potential as a F1 winner has nothing to do with it, nor should it factor into this case for any reason
This isn't a popularity contest, it's about one party not fulfilling their end of the contract,
that's why we have the law and the court system to take care of these problems

What if this was about engines and Ferrari decided to supply Mclaren instead of Sauber even though they had the contract
You wouldn't say to bad Mclaren is better then Sauber or tough luck Mclaren's got more money

[xDama]

If the grid were limited to potential F1 winners, we would only need about a dozen cars on the grid. All you need is three billionaires with two cars each, and let them spend as much money as they want.

All I'm saying is: he's has been around F1 since 2008 as a test driver and the only time he got a seat, was with a team that desperately needed pay-drivers. He's trying to get into F1 since 2008, waving with a bag of Mcgregor-money every year.

He drove 5 seasons in GP2 and his best result was 3rd overall. He won the title in FR 3.5 against Julien Jousse and Fabio Carbone, one of the weakest line-ups in 3.5-history... Instead of wasting yet another ton of money on a dream that simply will never come true, he would've been better looking into other racing classes. Indy, WEC, FE, WTCC. VDG isn't a bad driver, but he's going nowhere with his career in F1. Next month he's hitting 30, maybe he realises it by then.

Even if he gets a seat, and even if Sauber are moderately competitive; VDG will gain nothing with all this.

[Jonnycraig]

If I was VDG I wouldn't even want to drive for a team that chose someone else over me.... He's an idiot.

The answer..... drive faster when you get a chance. Skills that pay the bills.

VDG driving or not driving has absolutely nothing to do with his abilities of course.

[stuartpengs]

I think what really depresses me about this whole sordid affair is that it really underlines some of the problems facing F1. It used to be the best drivers in the world, in the best cars in the world, a combination that would give teams the greatest chance of success. Now the best drivers don't get a look in (with the exception of the established few), unless they can support the team financially. More often though they can't, so teams will take slower drivers just to ensure they're able to compete. The paradox being, without the best drivers, they'll very likely never go any further than making up the numbers.

F1 currently exists in the guise of 4 or 5 teams. After that it's just making the numbers up, and this is a thoroughly depressing thought.

[xDama]

I think what really depresses me about this whole sordid affair is that it really underlines some of the problems facing F1. It used to be the best drivers in the world, in the best cars in the world, a combination that would give teams the greatest chance of success. Now the best drivers don't get a look in (with the exception of the established few), unless they can support the team financially. More often though they can't, so teams will take slower drivers just to ensure they're able to compete. The paradox being, without the best drivers, they'll very likely never go any further than making up the numbers.

F1 currently exists in the guise of 4 or 5 teams. After that it's just making the numbers up, and this is a thoroughly depressing thought.

+1

Spot on!

[Phil]

I have to agree with bdr529, VdG's talent or prospects are utterly irrelevant in this case with Sauber. If your problem is with "pay-drivers", then there's a topic on cost-caps or the health of F1 as a whole which would be more appropriate.

VdG's talent and prospect are only relevant in regards to Sauber is if they would need to pay damages or compensation on withdrawing from what may be a valid contract to race in 2015. If this is the case, I think the point if VdG had a realistic chance to race in 2015 if it weren't for Sauber to be one of the determing factors on how high any pay-off is. If he simply offered to pay once he got the seat, but never did - I'm not sure what court would force Sauber to pay a lot "damage" given that his prospects of racing were low to beginn with (for reasons named in my lengthy post).

[knabbel]

I think what really depresses me about this whole sordid affair is that it really underlines some of the problems facing F1. It used to be the best drivers in the world

The F1 has pay drivers for the last 40 years or so, it's not something new.

[xDama]

I have to agree with bdr529, VdG's talent or prospects are utterly irrelevant in this case with Sauber. If your problem is with "pay-drivers", then there's a topic on cost-caps or the health of F1 as a whole which would be more appropriate.

I don't disaggree to that, BUT for me personally this entire situation has been created because of the current state of affairs in the financial department of F1. Sauber are fighting to survive, just like Manor, Caterham, Lotus and FI and pay-drivers are becoming significantly more important to a teams survival. It's a lot more complicated than Sauber giving out dodgy contracts or average skilled drivers buying a seat imo.

Neither Sauber or VDG will win a thing with this. It's just a waste of time and money imo.

[stuartpengs]

The F1 has pay drivers for the last 40 years or so, it's not something new.

But the fundamental ethos of many F1 teams has changed significantly in recent years. Pay drivers may have been around for many years to one degree or another (though I don't think we can argue that they're more common today). For too many F1 teams today, the success of a season is whether they've survived. The finishing line is still being there for next season, even if that reduces that chances of getting to the chequred flag slightly sooner because of the use of a (slower) paying driver.

F1 is, or at least should encompass every minute detail that can make four wheels go faster around a track, every single detail. The 'nut' behind the wheel is intrinsic part of that formula. F1, for too many teams, is no longer about winning, it's about surviving. Something is very broken.

[Moxie]

Of course there is the notion that contracts must be honoured and anything other than that is ethically and morally wrong. In an ideal world maybe. But circumstances can change. For instance, in late 2013 or at the beginning of 2014, Saubers outlook was better. They weren't expecting to finish outside the points in every single race, thus lose millions (there's no precedent that Sauber ever finished outside the points, they've been an established midfield team for years now), so when they signed Sutil for a 2 year contract for both 2014 and 2015, they thought they had the situation handled. Any contract that was signed was, we can assume, in good faith with no malicious intent. Events during the 2014 championship changed that. The car didn't perform, they never finished in the points and Marussia going bust, changed how some suppliers do business, requiring upfront payment for their services. The prospect of finishing inside the top 10 in the WCC highly unlikely, resulting in expected further losses for the team (30 million for 10th?). At that point, you have to wonder to what degree Sauber is still under the moral obligation to honour those contracts (among also Sutils, who is/was bringing in no, or insubstantial money) if they can't realistically fullfill them because they can't meet their payments as a result?

Funny thing about contracts, they are supposed to be binding. Too many people in too many circumstances have been screwed. This is why we have contracts! This is why corporations pay lawyers buckets of money to make sure contracts are binding. VDG the person created Giedo van der Garde BV the company to financially protect himself, and clearly went the extra mile to make sure he wouldn't get screwed. The Swiss court has already ruled that the contract binds Sauber to the condition that a racing seat belongs to VDG. Contracts such as this always include provisions for buyouts, and penalties for breeches. Sauber could have paid the price for a buyout, or the penalty for a breech, but it has not. Instead the behavior has repeatedly been deceitful.

Furthermore, that seat obviously has a significant monetary value, or the concept of pay drivers wouldn't exist. He and his backers have made the investment, they have acquired the binding agreements, they have forgone other opportunities so to take possession of that asset. Every race that VDG is not in the seat, the promotional firm Giedo van der Garde BV (GVDG BV) loses face time for its number one spokesman. As long as VDG the person and GVDG BN the firm continue to honor their end of the contract (not drive for another team or in another series) the damages will continue to accrue.

[Maximum Bob]

Of course Sauber could always give back the 8 million euros that VdGs backers paid for the seat....except the only cash Sauber can get their hands is the loose change down the back of the sofa

[astracrazy]

Of course Sauber could always give back the 8 million euros that VdGs backers paid for the seat....except the only cash Sauber can get their hands is the loose change down the back of the sofa

Simple solution which is miles away

It can't just happen. VDG would need to essentially make a claim for it in court (say financial compensation). His not doing this because he is just after the race seat. Sauber, could in court, offer this as a settlement. The trouble is they can't because they don't have the money.