2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[mclaren111]

AWD is stupid, but I still believe the front motors can have less cooling requirements if they are used as brake recovery only.

Since braking is only 1-2s per braking moment.

But honestly, didn’t they create the current formula to address VW/Audi, to compete. With them backing out eventually?

IIRC Merc was pushing for the current PU configuration... They started working on it well over a year before anyone else and was "conditional" on them joining F1...

[garrett]

I don’t see them stepping away from the H unit. It’s one of innovations that set F1 apart from any other series

Well, Mercedes uses it on some of their road cars, but further?? The MGU-H already was on the bubble the last time, before the manufacturers changed their mind, let's see if it will call it a day this time. Maybe it will remain only as standardised part. If it happens it wouldn't matter if there are other possibilities of gaining additional power which are not as complex and expensive for new manufacturers.

[Jolle]

AWD is stupid, but I still believe the front motors can have less cooling requirements if they are used as brake recovery only.

Since braking is only 1-2s per braking moment.

But honestly, didn’t they create the current formula to address VW/Audi, to compete. With them backing out eventually?

IIRC Merc was pushing for the current PU configuration... They started working on it well over a year before anyone else and was "conditional" on them joining F1...

?

Mercedes has been in F1 since 1993, as a team owner since 1999 and changed teams in 2009. The current rules are from 2012.

[Jolle]

I don’t see them stepping away from the H unit. It’s one of innovations that set F1 apart from any other series

Well, Mercedes uses it on some of their road cars, but further?? The MGU-H already was on the bubble the last time, before the manufacturers changed their mind, let's see if it will call it a day this time. Maybe it will remain only as standardised part. If it happens it wouldn't matter if there are other possibilities of gaining additional power which are not as complex and expensive for new manufacturers.

Is it your wish or based on some intel?

[mclaren111]

AWD is stupid, but I still believe the front motors can have less cooling requirements if they are used as brake recovery only.

Since braking is only 1-2s per braking moment.

But honestly, didn’t they create the current formula to address VW/Audi, to compete. With them backing out eventually?

IIRC Merc was pushing for the current PU configuration... They started working on it well over a year before anyone else and was "conditional" on them joining F1...

?

Mercedes has been in F1 since 1993, as a team owner since 1999 and changed teams in 2009. The current rules are from 2012.

IIRC they had works partnership with Mclaren, not as Merc team... They bought Brawn after an agreement with the FIA that the engines will move to a cleaner hybrid version. Merc started work on the current PU version in 2010 already...

[Jolle]

IIRC Merc was pushing for the current PU configuration... They started working on it well over a year before anyone else and was "conditional" on them joining F1...

?

Mercedes has been in F1 since 1993, as a team owner since 1999 and changed teams in 2009. The current rules are from 2012.

IIRC they had works partnership with Mclaren, not as Merc team... They bought Brawn after an agreement with the FIA that the engines will move to a cleaner hybrid version. Merc started work on the current PU version in 2010 already...

Daimler owed 40% of stock, more then anybody else, the board of directors were filled with Daimler executives and they build McLaren-Mercedes road cars. They were in the process to buy the remaining 60% before --- hit the fan.
McLaren was poised to become Daimler’s Ferrari.

[NL_Fer]

The electric part would remain very small without the mgu-h. Exhaust recovery is much larger than brake recovery at the moment.

Maybe fia could specify the torque output curve for the ice. Limit the advantage of current competitors over a new entrant like Audi or Porsche.

Let them compete over ers output & recovery and package size.

[garrett]

Is it your wish or based on some intel?

Both. The discussion goes if the MGU-H still makes sense. But of course nothing is fixed yet. Thus, the front axe generator could be an alternative.

Also the new Peugeot Hypercar has a generated fwd and a high density 900V battery.

[Jolle]

Is it your wish or based on some intel?

Both. The discussion goes if the MGU-H still makes sense. But of course nothing is fixed yet. Thus, the front axe generator could be an alternative.

Also the new Peugeot Hypercar has a generated fwd and a high density 900V battery.

WEC cars and F1 are very different beasts. With a brake by wire front a lot of brake feel will disappear, which is one of the most important tools of a F1 driver. WEC cars are races in a different way. Much more on average speed and much less on wheel to wheel action.

Even the smaller rear brake by wire rear axle of F1 cars, still have the drivers complaining for the lack of feel. Once that is really resolved, they could work on the front axle.

[JordanMugen]

For a racing car not a nice solution, because just a big constant “whoooo” sounds independent from speed, throttle position or change of direction. Like watching a football match with vuvenselas in the stands.

It's either that or pure electric. At least the former takes advantage of the superior energy density of liquid fuel compared to a battery.

Of course I would like removal of MGU-H and turbo, to make a naturally aspirated 1.6 V6, 2.0 V8, 2.6 V10 or 3.2 V12, but I don't think this is favoured by F1 power unit builders.

[JordanMugen]

Interesting choice of an angle, presumably just for packaging reasons?

Maybe that 120 version could play a distinct role if the MGU-H is abolished, which seems to be very likely to happen?

If the MGU-H would be abolished, why not the turbo(s) as well?

A peppy NA motor (even if it was just a little 1.6L V6) could be supplemented by front and rear electric regeneration, a large battery pack (say 40-60 kWh?) and unrestricted electric power.

I don’t see them stepping away from the H unit.

It also makes it too difficult for Gibson, AER and others to supply independent F1 power units. Surely competitive independent units from Red Bull and others has to be fundamental to the 2025 PU regulations?

Perhaps a modular approach where the naturally-aspirated ICE and ERS are separate modules, both with cost-cap customer prices, and suppliers of ICE and ERS respectively must be willing to supply the whole field when requested. To remove the unfortunate situation of Red Bull being unable to obtain Mercedes power units.

The electric part would remain very small without the mgu-h. Exhaust recovery is much larger than brake recovery at the moment.

Interesting. How about the notion of a pre-charged 150-250 kWh battery that would slowly be used throughout the entire 305km Grand Prix? I imagine a 1500-1800kg minimum weight should make this feasible -- making Grand Prix cars a true plug-in hybrid? The ICE would top up the power output to 1000hp, or 2000hp to account for the increased weight.

Wouldn't that be a better step towards proper hybridisation and increased road-relevant electrification? It is typical for road going electric performance cars to have such kerb weighs, so why not a Grand Prix car as well?

Or how about a maximum battery pack weight of 300-500kg (and unlimited electric power), so it would be up to the teams or suppliers to get the energy density as high as possible?

[Jolle]

Interesting choice of an angle, presumably just for packaging reasons?

Maybe that 120 version could play a distinct role if the MGU-H is abolished, which seems to be very likely to happen?

If the MGU-H would be abolished, why not the turbo(s) as well?

A peppy NA motor (even if it was just a little 1.6L V6) could be supplemented by front and rear electric regeneration, a large battery pack (say 40-60 kWh?) and unrestricted electric power.

I don’t see them stepping away from the H unit.

It also makes it too difficult for Gibson, AER and others to supply independent F1 power units. Surely competitive independent units from Red Bull and others has to be fundamental to the 2025 PU regulations?

Perhaps a modular approach where the naturally-aspirated ICE and ERS are separate modules, both with cost-cap customer prices, and suppliers of ICE and ERS respectively must be willing to supply the whole field when requested. To remove the unfortunate situation of Red Bull being unable to obtain Mercedes power units.

There are a lot of suppliers in the automotive industry who can supply MGU-K and H units. Bosch and Magnetti for instance. The biggest problem of companies like Cosworth, Mecachrome and Gibson is the combustion chamber designs, where Daimler got to use its diesel knowledge for and Mahler is supplying Ferrari.

[mclaren111]

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/ ... massively/

Wolff:
"So these engines are still going to be fuelled. We are staying with the current V6 format, but the electric component is going to massively increase."

We must enjoy F1 now while we still can...

With 2022 rules being so restrictive, all cars will be identical by 2023...

Now more electrical BS from 2025's PU as well...

There goes my favorite sport...

[JordanMugen]

With 2022 rules being so restrictive, all cars will be identical by 2023...

Now more electrical BS from 2025's PU as well...

There goes my favorite sport...

Electrification is the way of the future, isn't it?

Like I said, I think the 2025 power unit regulations should focus on allowing up to 500kg or even 750kg or 1000kg allowance for a battery pack. In a plug-in hybrid like a Grand Prix car, the battery pack is the major component of the vehicle.

Say if you don't want to raise the car weight too much, it could be a 325kg battery pack, and a 1095kg minimum racing weight for the plug-in hybrid F1 car before fuel. Unlimited battery capacity, unlimited electrical power output, and let them have at cramming as much energy density in that 325kg as possible!

The qualification rounds with a fully charged battery should be just mighty! The racing could become very tactical and fascinating as to how you dish your electrical energy out over a 305km Grand Prix.

Whether that is paired with a detuned 1.6 single-turbo MGU-H 90-degree V6 with less fuel flow, I guess it doesn't matter that much and would be fine. "Complexity is best" in plug-in hybrids.

The current 25kg battery pack seems meagre, so there is a huge opportunity to step it up to something like 325kg and increase the electrical component of the Grand Prix car's energy store.

You could even set a cap on the power output of the ICE, to make the ICE side of things easier for newcomers like Cosworth, Gibson (or even Audi or Porsche)? So capped ICE, unlimited electric -- the opposite to the current power units.

[Jolle]

“Massively increase” would probably mean double the electrical power, with a decease in fuel flow. Nothing so radical like a 20x increase of the battery weight as someone suggested.

If they want to make it easier for companies to source an ICE, I would go for a more regulated combustion chain er design. For parties like VW, BMW or Toyota it doesn’t make sense to invest heavy in ICE tech, while software, e-power and battery chemistry is the future. Maybe not for a company like RedBull, but Bosch would probably want to invest, together with let’s say, A123.

Even in the automotive industry, good chance even the big companies are going to source most of their tech outside the company, bit like they are doing now with all the electrics, windows, etc (basically everything not made of metal).

Who knows… Porsche Rimac on the grid in a couple of years?