2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

[Cam]

Now you're kidding or playing the troll.

No, I'm completely serious.....I couldn't care less which I watch. Instead, what I care about seeing is people fighting. We're seeing far more people fighting than we did in 2004-2008, so I'm good.

When was F1 ever about people "fighting"? If you're happy watching that, the kart track is for you, enjoy. Meanwhile, some of us want one, just one, Motorsport series where ultimate speed, power, noise and, as a result yes, a complete destruction of all competitors by the perfect package of man and machine, is the focus. You already have dozens of series that fulfill your needs, you want us to have nothing? Those silver arrows back in the day fought no one - smashed all-comers and exemplified F1, for better or worse. Some of us enjoy that, no matter how 'boring' it may seem to others.

[Tim.Wright]

Go look at some videos of the old V10s, they are visually faster. To use an old advertising slogan: F1. The Ultimate. Is it really the ultimate anymore? Probably not.

Well considering that the fastest laps at all these tracks are from F1 cars I think they are pretty well placed.

[Artur Craft]

I think this laptime thing is being blown out of proportion. In the early days of F1 you could enter F1 with an F2 or F3 car, so an overlap in performance isn't something new nor is it the end of the world. Still no other classes are lapping these tracks faster than the fastest F1 cars.

And personally, I'm enjoying watching the drivers fighting the cars in the corners now. As much as I hate the new engines, they are working well with the new harder tyres to provide a good challenge to the drivers which is entertaining to watch.

The tyres are still extremely soft. They are 0,6s slower than the "cheese" ones from 2013 but faster than the also very softs compounds of 2011 and 2012. Just compare the GP2 Barcelona pole times from each year. The 2014 ones are much closer to the 2013 than to the previous Pirellis which are 1,2-1,4s slower than the 2014 ones.

If you watch GP2, they fight even more with the car and still have more downforce.

You have to appreciate that the grip these cars are getting is unprecedented. We're getting 4.5-5Gs on the drivers, and you can't really exceed that. You can load all the HP and downforce you want but the only path to go faster is through the tires and if you push everything else ahead, you wind up with everyone tire limited from the same manufacturer. That's what led to many of F1s problems 10 years ago where passing was rare because the was insufficient differences in vehicle acceleration (including braking) where multiple tire manufacturers were seen as a solution to add a new variable (which failed). The sport has to artificially keep the cars well clear of the tire limit, give them acceleration opportunities (DRS/KERS), and give teams room to innovate from the limit to the tire limit, otherwise we go back to slot-cars, with pass-less processions, and lots of R&D yielding nothing.

Even with lot's of downforce, the Pirelli's could only reach peak of 4,5Gs and 3,9Gs sustained while with other manufacturers(even on grooved era) they achieved peaks of 5,5Gs and sustained of almost 5G

But now they max at 3,2Gs and that is a low figure for F1. Barrichello said that they peaked at 6G in Barcelona's T3 in 1997 and Michelin cars peaked also 6Gs at Suzuka's 130R in the 2000s

I started liking F1 because they were much faster in cornering than anything else. Now they are cornering slower than some other series, so they are not the "pinnacle of racing" to me

[GitanesBlondes]

Now you're kidding or playing the troll.

No, I'm completely serious. What gets me off is exciting racing, not a car completing a lap half a second faster than anyone has done so before. A 1:25.2 looks to a TV viewer basically exactly the same as a 1:19.0. I couldn't care less which I watch. Instead, what I care about seeing is people fighting. We're seeing far more people fighting than we did in 2004-2008, so I'm good.

If you really wanted to see more people fighting in a race, you would not be watching F1.

What we see in F1 is not fighting anyway. It's contrived passing with the announcers repeating ad nauseum that some massive battle is going on in an effort to convince themselves, and the fans.

A 1:25 is not the same when you can see the cornering speeds are slowly dropping. But hey...tell yourself whatever makes it easier to accept what passes for F1 currently.

[Pierce89]

I think this laptime thing is being blown out of proportion. In the early days of F1 you could enter F1 with an F2 or F3 car, so an overlap in performance isn't something new nor is it the end of the world. Still no other classes are lapping these tracks faster than the fastest F1 cars.

And personally, I'm enjoying watching the drivers fighting the cars in the corners now. As much as I hate the new engines, they are working well with the new harder tyres to provide a good challenge to the drivers which is entertaining to watch.

The tyres are still extremely soft. They are 0,6s slower than the "cheese" ones from 2013 but faster than the also very softs compounds of 2011 and 2012. Just compare the GP2 Barcelona pole times from each year. The 2014 ones are much closer to the 2013 than to the previous Pirellis which are 1,2-1,4s slower than the 2014 ones.

If you watch GP2, they fight even more with the car and still have more downforce.

You have to appreciate that the grip these cars are getting is unprecedented. We're getting 4.5-5Gs on the drivers, and you can't really exceed that. You can load all the HP and downforce you want but the only path to go faster is through the tires and if you push everything else ahead, you wind up with everyone tire limited from the same manufacturer. That's what led to many of F1s problems 10 years ago where passing was rare because the was insufficient differences in vehicle acceleration (including braking) where multiple tire manufacturers were seen as a solution to add a new variable (which failed). The sport has to artificially keep the cars well clear of the tire limit, give them acceleration opportunities (DRS/KERS), and give teams room to innovate from the limit to the tire limit, otherwise we go back to slot-cars, with pass-less processions, and lots of R&D yielding nothing.

Even with lot's of downforce, the Pirelli's could only reach 4,5Gs and 3,9Gs sustained while with other manufacturers(even on grooved era) they achieved peaks of 5,5Gs and sustained of almost 5G

But now they max at 3,2Gs and that is a low figure for F1. Barrichello said that they peaked at 6G in Barcelona's T3 in 1997 and Michelin cars peaked also 6Gs at Suzuka's 130R in the 2000s

I started liking F1 because they were much faster in cornering than anything else. Now they are cornering slower than some other series, so they are not the "pinnacle of racing" to me

Which series is cornering faster than f1? I need non-anecdotal evidence on this one. Also, where did you come up with the idea that gp2 has more down force than f1? We're also seeing peaks well over 3.2g . If you actually look at the numbers, f1 only cornered faster in the 2000-2008 era.

[Juzh]

I think this laptime thing is being blown out of proportion. In the early days of F1 you could enter F1 with an F2 or F3 car, so an overlap in performance isn't something new nor is it the end of the world. Still no other classes are lapping these tracks faster than the fastest F1 cars.

And personally, I'm enjoying watching the drivers fighting the cars in the corners now. As much as I hate the new engines, they are working well with the new harder tyres to provide a good challenge to the drivers which is entertaining to watch.

The tyres are still extremely soft. They are 0,6s slower than the "cheese" ones from 2013 but faster than the also very softs compounds of 2011 and 2012. Just compare the GP2 Barcelona pole times from each year. The 2014 ones are much closer to the 2013 than to the previous Pirellis which are 1,2-1,4s slower than the 2014 ones.

If you watch GP2, they fight even more with the car and still have more downforce.

You have to appreciate that the grip these cars are getting is unprecedented. We're getting 4.5-5Gs on the drivers, and you can't really exceed that. You can load all the HP and downforce you want but the only path to go faster is through the tires and if you push everything else ahead, you wind up with everyone tire limited from the same manufacturer. That's what led to many of F1s problems 10 years ago where passing was rare because the was insufficient differences in vehicle acceleration (including braking) where multiple tire manufacturers were seen as a solution to add a new variable (which failed). The sport has to artificially keep the cars well clear of the tire limit, give them acceleration opportunities (DRS/KERS), and give teams room to innovate from the limit to the tire limit, otherwise we go back to slot-cars, with pass-less processions, and lots of R&D yielding nothing.

Even with lot's of downforce, the Pirelli's could only reach 4,5Gs and 3,9Gs sustained while with other manufacturers(even on grooved era) they achieved peaks of 5,5Gs and sustained of almost 5G

But now they max at 3,2Gs and that is a low figure for F1. Barrichello said that they peaked at 6G in Barcelona's T3 in 1997 and Michelin cars peaked also 6Gs at Suzuka's 130R in the 2000s

I started liking F1 because they were much faster in cornering than anything else. Now they are cornering slower than some other series, so they are not the "pinnacle of racing" to me

Which series is cornering faster than f1? I need non-anecdotal evidence on this one. Also, where did you come up with the idea that gp2 has more down force than f1? We're also seeing peaks well over 3.2g . If you actually look at the numbers, f1 only cornered faster in the 2000-2008 era.

RB6 from 2010 is the fastest cornering car of all times according to adrian newey himself.

[Pierce89]

Now you're kidding or playing the troll.

No, I'm completely serious. What gets me off is exciting racing, not a car completing a lap half a second faster than anyone has done so before. A 1:25.2 looks to a TV viewer basically exactly the same as a 1:19.0. I couldn't care less which I watch. Instead, what I care about seeing is people fighting. We're seeing far more people fighting than we did in 2004-2008, so I'm good.

Disagree on both counts, first i can clearly see the difference between a GP2 car going around the track to an new F1 to an old F1.

Second, F1 has always been about the fastest most exciting cars in the world and not good racing.
Occasionally it has good racing (i would argue you on whether the current race for 3rd has been good but that is besides the point), but it has never been a series with particularly good racing...
Every team aims to produce a car that can curb stomp the opposition, and that leads to a tiered "static" grid, not exactly good racing.

Right now one team is curb stomping the opposition, which is nothing new (though the margins are), the big change is that cars are the least exciting in relation to the tech available in the world that they've ever been...

So.... down force is exciting? Hell, I'm in school for aeronautical engineering and I don't want to see the Aerodynamics World Championship of 2006-13. I like cars where the driver works hard and the more DF you pile on a car the more it hides differences in driver talent.

[Pierce89]

RB6 from 2010 is the fastest cornering car of all times according to adrian newey himself.

I'm only aware that he said the rb6 had the most df of his personally designed cars. Could you provide a quote?

[Juzh]

RB6 from 2010 is the fastest cornering car of all times according to adrian newey himself.

I'm only aware that he said the rb6 had the most df of his personally designed cars. Could you provide a quote?

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/03/11/w ... 014-newey/
You're right, he said most DF ever. This however almost directly translates into fastest cornering car. RB6 was the only car to take turn 8 in turkey and turn 9 in barcelona flat.

[PlatinumZealot]

Now you're kidding or playing the troll.

No, I'm completely serious. What gets me off is exciting racing, not a car completing a lap half a second faster than anyone has done so before. A 1:25.2 looks to a TV viewer basically exactly the same as a 1:19.0. I couldn't care less which I watch. Instead, what I care about seeing is people fighting. We're seeing far more people fighting than we did in 2004-2008, so I'm good.

THIS!

And Bob, little do they know that the faster Formula 1 cars go around the circuit the lesser window for a workable overtakes. The cars can only go so much faster before Overtakes because pretty friggin impossible.

[munudeges]

When a good portion of the grid is overlapping with GP2 time-wise, that's not Formula 1 by any stretch of the imagination.

[Artur Craft]

Which series is cornering faster than f1? I need non-anecdotal evidence on this one. Also, where did you come up with the idea that gp2 has more down force than f1? We're also seeing peaks well over 3.2g . If you actually look at the numbers, f1 only cornered faster in the 2000-2008 era.

I would request the same and ask you to provide evidence for that claim in bold.

I heard Barrichello say that about the 1997 car on a tv show, once. The 6Gs at Suzuka I read from Mario Theissen:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/54851

If you watch ITV's Suzuka 2003 qualifying coverage, Brundle says that McNish(Toyota's Friday driver back then) told him they were reaching 5Gs on the Esses and those are a much slower corners than 130R, done at about 210kmh.

With Pirellis, the highest lateral G-force I saw on a telemetry(they ones FOM display on screen) was 4,5Gs at entry Copse(+280kmh) but that was a peak value and the sustained figure was around 3,8G. In 2010 with Bridgestones, they had peaks of over 5G midcorner(which means a less speed) and sustained of around 4.7G

If you had read my previous posts on the last few pages of this thread, you would know why I claim GP2s to be cornering faster than F1. But I will repeat the reasoning(this time with fixes because GP2 has 612HP and not 500HP as I believed):

Their tyres are the same and also their mass(F1 and GP2, that is). What differs them is the aerodynamics and power.

Renault already admitted on Red Bulletin that their engine generates at least 640HP, IIRC, so they have a max power of 800HP for 35s(and Mercedes probably much more than that). Meanwhile, GP2s have 612HP and no DRS which makes them significantly slower on straights.

100HP accounts for around 3s of laptime gain, on an average circuit. So we can estimate around 6s advantage of F1 cars over GP2s, on power alone(the 35s probably is close to the full throttle time).

GP2 pole this year was 1.29.3, which converted to the same power region as F1 would bring it down to around 1.23.3. However it was done with Soft compound while F1's pole was done on Mediums(gap according to Pirelli between 1.2 to 1.5s), so the GP2 pole now would be at 1.24.8

This is faster than F1's 2014 pole time and I neglected the DRS effect which might account to another second there.

So, on equal power(and tyre compounds) and considering the DRS effect, GP2 pole would comfortably have a lower laptime. And where would that come from if everything else is adjusted to equal levels? Obviously downforce

Also, my comment that current cars can only corner at 3.2Gs comes from the fact that Lewis' 2014 pole had him cornering Campsa(Barcelona's T9) at 210kmh, while Rosberg's 2013 pole was at 245kmh and Webber's 2010 had him flat out at 260kmh.

I know that the RB6 could corner at 5G@260kmh, so, doing the math, current cars would be cornering Campsa at no more than 3,2Gs

[GitanesBlondes]

After spending some time reading various fan opinions of this race, and their thoughts about the larger picture of the season across multiple news/blog/forums, I'm starting to realize something about it all. The F1 fanbase is reaching a nadir of monumental stupidity. Many of the fans have been reduced to rationalizing every aspect of the F1 product as something good. If in order to watch a grand prix, fans had to drink a cup of Bernie Ecclestone's piss, they would do so, and smile while commenting on the brilliantly sublime, yet crisp hoppy aftertaste it has. F1 fans at large, are irrational and accept anything as meaningful progress even when it is not.

The cars are slow, and using the rationale of the cornering speeds are still faster than any other race series holds little weight with me when it is obvious the entire race is run as a fuel-saving exercise under the guise of "racing".

I had to laugh when I saw people talking themselves into this race being full of drama. It was another Circuit Catalunya snoozefest, that kept in line with how every F1 race at this circuit has been, dating back to September 1991.

It takes a special kind of stupid to build off of the prior worst formula in existence, and manage to make that look good. It takes something even more to delude one's self into thinking this is interesting racing.

As I keep saying, I invite you guys to watch Le Mans in a month, and then try and tell me F1 is even enjoyable.

[Juzh]

I know that the RB6 could corner at 5G@260kmh, so, doing the math, current cars would be cornering Campsa at no more than 3,2Gs

Overall very good analysis, but the FIA onboard G-meter graphics can only go up to 5G maximum imo. It just seems too convenient to always stop just at that number, don't you think? It's likely peak Gs are in fact even higher.

Good example here:


We can also see RB6 was able to corner at 4.8 pure lateral Gs with F-duct fully engaged trough last turn. You try this with today's cars you're gonna have a huge accident.

This is what F1 should be about. Taking it to the limit in one way or another. If not for corner speed, then go for flat out acceleration to compensate. While we have much better straight line speed figures this year (even compared to V10s), they're mostly result of a drastic reduction in DF and drag, not actual engine power. Lift the fuel flow limit from 100kg/h to something which will comfortably give them 360-370 kmh on all circuits which have some sort of long straight and it would be instantly much better. Not to mention drivers being even more on the ragged edge with all that power available.

[Tim.Wright]

Yet you keep coming back...