2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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organic
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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If this ability is still real and I am scared to trust that Twitter account then it would be worrying for Ferrari for some tracks

AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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organic wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 22:02
If this ability is still real and I am scared to trust that Twitter account then it would be worrying for Ferrari for some tracks
:lol: understandable....

We shall see in Bahrain, but I don't think Ferrari have managed to "get slippery" for free. I think they've taken a short cut that isn't going to pay off.
A lion must kill its prey.

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 21:58
Even when Ferrari opens the DRS in Bahrain testing, they don't gain as much as RB did. F1data analysis said there was still a 3-4% difference in favor of Red Bull in the km/h gained opening the DRS
The problem for DRS with Ferrari's wing is smaller camber than RB. Just look at trailing edge angle of their wings in closed position. So less downforce and less drag when closed, but smaller difference when DRS is open. That's why I was calling it low-mid downforce wing, even if the frontal area and angle is not that small.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 22:10
AR3-GP wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 21:58
Even when Ferrari opens the DRS in Bahrain testing, they don't gain as much as RB did. F1data analysis said there was still a 3-4% difference in favor of Red Bull in the km/h gained opening the DRS
The problem for DRS with Ferrari's wing is smaller camber than RB. Just look at trailing edge angle of their wings in closed position. So less downforce and less drag when closed, but smaller difference when DRS is open. That's why I was calling it low-mid downforce wing, even if the frontal area and angle is not that small.
Yes but what is maddening to me is that Ferrari have had over a year now to try and replicate what we have tentatively decided is simply the result of "running a bigger DRS flap". And yet they have not done it! The second higher downforce wing that Leclerc tried for 1 lap on Saturday had the exact same flap size as the original wing.

So this makes me think something about this "large DRS flap" solution is not suited to the Ferrari, and that's why they haven't copied it. It could also be that simply making a larger DRS flap is not entirely what is making the RB so quick when the DRS is open.
A lion must kill its prey.

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 22:11
So this makes me think something about this "large DRS flap" solution is not suited to the Ferrari, and that's why they haven't copied it. It could also be that simply making a larger DRS flap is not entirely what is making the RB so quick when the DRS is open.
Like I said, camber is bigger on RB rear wing, flaps are about the same size. This means RB flaps generates more drag when closed than Ferrari flap when closed, so when it opens the difference in drag reduction is bigger. This way RB is driving the rear wing main plane harder when the flap is closed, since the overall camber is bigger.

To be honest, I confirmed this difference only today, didn't notice Ferrari flap angle until yesterday. The only explanation I have is that Ferrari wanted to reduce RW drag even with flap closed (for defense in the race?) last year and they wanted to use it as benchmark now. Otherwise, it's a too obvious thing for anyone to miss.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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organic
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 22:32
AR3-GP wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 22:11
So this makes me think something about this "large DRS flap" solution is not suited to the Ferrari, and that's why they haven't copied it. It could also be that simply making a larger DRS flap is not entirely what is making the RB so quick when the DRS is open.
Like I said, camber is bigger on RB rear wing, flaps are about the same size. This means RB flaps generates more drag when closed than Ferrari flap when closed, so when it opens the difference in drag reduction is bigger. This way RB is driving the rear wing main plane harder when the flap is closed, since the overall camber is bigger.

To be honest, I confirmed this difference only today, didn't notice Ferrari flap angle until yesterday. The only explanation I have is that Ferrari wanted to reduce RW drag even with flap closed (for defense in the race?) last year and they wanted to use it as benchmark now. Otherwise, it's a too obvious thing for anyone to miss.
Do you think how good the electrical deployment is could affect design decision re: camber of the RW?

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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No, aero comes first. DRS mechanism is secondary, including making shape and geometry compromise to reduce aero losses...
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 23:27
No, aero comes first. DRS mechanism is secondary, including making shape and geometry compromise to reduce aero losses...
I think he meant ers deployment as Honda supposedly have the best ers deployment so could they run a more aggressive wing and offset the drag with superior ers deployment.

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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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So i've been thinking about why Red Bull have such simple mirrors coverings. Maybe they have a comical loophole interpretation for next week.

After all, how could Marko call this car "ready" when it looks like they forgot to design mirrors. :wtf:
A lion must kill its prey.

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djos
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 03:15
So i've been thinking about why Red Bull have such simple mirrors coverings. Maybe they have a comical loophole interpretation for next week.

After all, how could Marko call this car "ready" when it looks like they forgot to design mirrors. :wtf:
A more complex mirror housing equals more drag?
"In downforce we trust"

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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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djos wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 03:24
AR3-GP wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 03:15
So i've been thinking about why Red Bull have such simple mirrors coverings. Maybe they have a comical loophole interpretation for next week.

After all, how could Marko call this car "ready" when it looks like they forgot to design mirrors. :wtf:
A more complex mirror housing equals more drag?
Maybe, but teams have been justifying funny mirror designs for almost a decade now. Why stop now?

I don't really know. Maybe they are finding performance in simplicity :wtf:
A lion must kill its prey.

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djos
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 03:31
djos wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 03:24
AR3-GP wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 03:15
So i've been thinking about why Red Bull have such simple mirrors coverings. Maybe they have a comical loophole interpretation for next week.

After all, how could Marko call this car "ready" when it looks like they forgot to design mirrors. :wtf:
A more complex mirror housing equals more drag?
Maybe, but teams have been justifying funny mirror designs for almost a decade now. Why stop now?

I don't really know. Maybe they are finding performance in simplicity :wtf:
I dont either, sometimes simple is best.
"In downforce we trust"

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organic
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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djos wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 03:24
AR3-GP wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 03:15
So i've been thinking about why Red Bull have such simple mirrors coverings. Maybe they have a comical loophole interpretation for next week.

After all, how could Marko call this car "ready" when it looks like they forgot to design mirrors. :wtf:
A more complex mirror housing equals more drag?
The simple but blown through mirror housings are less draggy

Kyle covers why at about 10mins into this Haas analysis



I would be shocked if the mirrors/mirror supports don't change for bahrain. Given this is an area with a lot of freedom maybe they do have a dodgy/loophole solution that they didn't want to show

But I could see it also that they just didn't want to spend any development time on less important components rather focusing on front wing/floor/sidepod undercut/floor edge

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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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If RB did not pull any rabbits out of their hat come Race day, I'd be puzzled.

Thereis a remoet chance they found out that some drag there actually benefitted the flow field and they keep it like this, but RB has never been a "simple mirror" team. They had arguably the most refined mirrors in '22 which were quickly copied by many.

My money is on a funky solution too. At least, I'd love to see one.

Then again, if they feel confident, they may keep it in the pocket for a rainy day. Parts not raced are not part of the cost cap. If they feel confident they can win with this car, they might opt for a reactive update strategy. Just keep the parts in the truck and when somebody announces something big, and the lead is marginal, they'll announce theirs and bolt it on. Developing the '23 car if it's already dominant makes no sense. You'd spend the time and effort on the '24 car to assure your dominance for next year.

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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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organic wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 09:36

But I could see it also that they just didn't want to spend any development time on less important components rather focusing on front wing/floor/sidepod undercut/floor edge
Yes this could be part of how RB planned to compensate for the WT time reduction. Neglecting the less important areas to basically get the most bang for their buck in the windtunnel. Speculation of course.

I just can't quite piece together how Marko said it's the best pre-season ever, yet they don't appear to have really bothered to make a mirror, unlike 9 other teams.
A lion must kill its prey.