Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[GoranF1]

The guy who wrote HP figures is Manuel Franco(sits next to Alonso) and is very very close to Fernando.
https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 7625136132

[tom101]

that's exactly what I thought when seeing Alonso being overtaken , Mercedes is 100hp over

yes, with wet setup there is more drag, but the other cars were also with some RW drag too

[Petroltorque]

If the overtake is with DRS assist that gives a false impression. The most accurate assessment of the deficit is that Honda are about 60bhp down on th Mercedes in self sustaining mode. That equates to around 1s a lap every lap.

[Andres125sx]

The guy who wrote HP figures is Manuel Franco(sits next to Alonso) and is very very close to Fernando.

https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 7625136132

Sorry but no, he´s just a journalist, no more no less. That twitter is just a joke saying "spanish around the world" wich is a famous TV program wich shows spaniards who went to different countries and show their experiences. I guess Alonso saw many compatriots at our antipodean (edit: for some reason I was thinking about Australia instead of Canada, so not our antipodean, but quite far anycase) so he just made the joke

Also, that article from AS does not mention any source, and he (Manuel Franco) even say speed difference is too big despite McLaren is using low drag setups to make up the difference, when it was Alonso himself who stated they used a wet (high drag) setup, so you can be sure his sources are not any reliable

So basically that article have zero credibility to me

[ojlopez]

The guy who wrote HP figures is Manuel Franco(sits next to Alonso) and is very very close to Fernando.

https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 7625136132

Sorry but no, he´s just a journalist, no more no less. That twitter is just a joke saying "spanish around the world" wich is a famous TV program wich shows spaniards who went to different countries and show their experiences. I guess Alonso saw many compatriots at our antipodean (edit: for some reason I was thinking about Australia instead of Canada, so not our antipodean, but quite far anycase) so he just made the joke

Also, that article from AS does not mention any source, and he (Manuel Franco) even say speed difference is too big despite McLaren is using low drag setups to make up the difference, when it was Alonso himself who stated they used a wet (high drag) setup, so you can be sure his sources are not any reliable

So basically that article have zero credibility to me

I agree with you. There is no foundation for those power claims. The only way to be sure about that is in a dyno. And besides, peak HP is not all that matters, the power curves are more important

[GoranF1]

"Sorry but no"....LOL....i never said they were true, i just posted who and where said it.

[Andres125sx]

"Sorry but no"....LOL....i never said they were true, i just posted who and where said it.

That was about your statement saying he´s very very close to Fernando

[GoranF1]

"Sorry but no"....LOL....i never said they were true, i just posted who and where said it.

That was about your statement saying he´s very very close to Fernando

Yes i think he is right....but that is just my opinion....i never wrote it was a fact.

[Andres125sx]

Maybe I can´t express myself properly, but when I said ´sorry buy no´, I was not talking about Manuel Franco statement, but about your statement saying he´s very close to Fernando.

The guy who wrote HP figures is Manuel Franco(sits next to Alonso) and is very very close to Fernando.

https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 7625136132

[GoranF1]

Maybe I can´t express myself properly, but when I said ´sorry buy no´, I was not talking about Manuel Franco statement, but about your statement saying he´s very close to Fernando.

The guy who wrote HP figures is Manuel Franco(sits next to Alonso) and is very very close to Fernando.

https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 7625136132

They are close....

[GoranF1]

I have been talking privatly to another knowed jurnalist, i am not going to name him here and when i told him about this AS article he told me he disagrees on Ferrari and Renault figures because a "senior" staf member from Renault has told him that gap is alot smaller than that now....but what is important to this thread, he told him than in Q modes Honda is in excess of 100bhp down on Mercedes and Ferrari.

[Petroltorque]

The problem with journalistic opinion is that unless the have a background in engineering they won't understand the science of the technology. In short they rely on what they are told and won't challenge it. As you may know in peer reviewed scientific papers even Expert opinion has the lowest level of evidence.
A case in point is the figure given for the various PU outputs. No one has questioned whether that is peak output or sustained output. Extrapolating outputs from speed traps is just prone to too much assumptions.
Andy Cowell has gone on record as stating their target thermal efficiency for this year was 50%. So for 100kg of F1 fuel that is an output of 830bhp. That's an output with pre combustion technology plus compounding via the MGU-Heat and delivered to the crank by the MGU-Kinetic. Even if you accept that the battery store can deliver 45-60bhp that's still far off those quoted output figures.
I can believe that Honda may be giving away much more in quali though. Some clever poster here had posted a snapshot of the dyno figures of the Honda unit was 720cv, so even with battery assist they will be well down on the leading Merc unit.

[Andres125sx]

Maybe I can´t express myself properly, but when I said ´sorry buy no´, I was not talking about Manuel Franco statement, but about your statement saying he´s very close to Fernando.

The guy who wrote HP figures is Manuel Franco(sits next to Alonso) and is very very close to Fernando.

https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 7625136132

They are close....

Then he´s a liar, as he wrote they´re using low drag setups when even people far from Fernando know that was not the case in Montreal

[henry]

The problem with journalistic opinion is that unless the have a background in engineering they won't understand the science of the technology. In short they rely on what they are told and won't challenge it. As you may know in peer reviewed scientific papers even Expert opinion has the lowest level of evidence.
A case in point is the figure given for the various PU outputs. No one has questioned whether that is peak output or sustained output. Extrapolating outputs from speed traps is just prone to too much extrapolation to make it accurate.
Andy Cowell has gone on record as stating their target thermal efficiency for this year was 50%. So for 100kg of F1 fuel that is an output of 830bhp. That's an output with pre combustion technology plus compounding via the MGU-Heat and delivered to the crank by the MGU-Kinetic. Even if you accept that the battery store can deliver 45-60bhp that's still far off those quoted output figures.
The assertion that he was informed that Renault are at the Ferrari level just doesn't make sense either since at Montreal Ferrari managed to out qualify Red Bull even though Red Bull have a much better chassis.
I can believe that Honda may be giving away much more in quali though. Some clever poster here had posted a snapshot of the dyno figures of the Honda unit was 720cv, so even with battery assist they will be well down on the leading Merc unit.

I think your 45-60bhp from the energy store is low. It suggests that the split of ICE to MGU-H shares of the 50% overall efficiency is 43.5 - 6.5. Or 540kw-80kw. Figures from magnetti marelli suggest that the Ferrari MGU-H delivers about 50kw in sustain mode. So if the Mercedes is a little better, say 60kw that still allows 60kw(80 bhp) from the ES for a peak sustain power of 910. If in qualification they sometimes open the wastegate and drive the compressor from the ES absolute Peak burst power will be higher than that with higher ICE output from reduced back pressure . How much higher is up for debate but it will edge the figures towards the 930-950 being touted.

[Tommy Cookers]

........ Andy Cowell has gone on record as stating their target thermal efficiency for this year was 50%. So for 100kg of F1 fuel that is an output of 830bhp. ........

presumably he means brake thermal efficiency
usually thermal efficiency describes the in-cylinder (or in-expander) process alone ie is related to the imep or equivalent(s) not to the bmep(s)
and is often called indicated thermal efficiency (imep is found directly from an in-cylinder indicator without the engine output being measured)
brake thermal efficiency will always be substantially less than thermal efficiency

also Mr Cowell etc presumably uses by engineering convention the lower heating value not the full 'scientific' value of the fuel energy
(engineering convention ignores eg the energy wasted in exhaust water vapour)
the true (scientifically-correct) efficiency will be less than the brake thermal efficiency

and 830 hp assumes that the fuel's energy content has not advanced recently