Renault R29

[ringo]

from a little knowledge on aero I can say it definitely increases down force over the front. It also channels air atop the splitter under the driver's legs much better than a slim nose.

[xpensive]

First of all, I am a devoted Alonso fan, nobody in today's field can begin to do what he can with an inferior car.

But the way 2009 has developed and the increasing threat of FOTA, MrE and MrM were handed a fantastic tool from Brawn GP to once again divide and conquer, there is no way Alonso can make up for an illegal diffuser like that.

One thing with F1T that never stops amazing me, is the picture-aerodynamicists and their expressions, high- and low-pressures, air "channeled" or "directed" here or there. Some even claimed that the horns on the RB5, covering the front torsion-bars, had an aerodynamic purpose.

When the 60s Jaguar E-Type was tried in a wind-tunnel, it was discovered it had a lower Cv in the reverse direction.

[ringo]

First of all, I am a devoted Alonso fan, nobody in today's field can begin to do what he can with an inferior car.

But the way 2009 has developed and the increasing threat of FOTA, MrE and MrM were handed a fantastic tool from Brawn GP to once again divide and conquer, there is no way Alonso can make up for an illegal diffuser like that.

One thing with F1T that never stops amazing me, is the picture-aerodynamicists and their expressions, high- and low-pressures, air "channeled" or "directed" here or there. Some even claimed that the horns on the RB5, covering the front torsion-bars, had an aerodynamic purpose.

When the 60s Jaguar E-Type was tried in a wind-tunnel, it was discovered it had a lower Cv in the reverse direction.

the FIA should have implemented that, it would surely make for better over taking, and better ability to recover from a spin.

[chris17]

If Renault use this new diffuser that they have apparently been developing for a month, will there not have to be other aero developments as well? Surely they can just stick the diffuser on and hope for the best. I've only seen one image of the floor from testing and that looked like they were trying to direct the airflow to the sides and the 'side skirts' that they were using. Unlike Williams and Brawn who have been using the Snow Plough or w/e it's called, can we expect a new floor as well, or is a month too little time for a complete redesign?

[Conceptual]

Maybe Renault need to find some new talent for their design department?

I bet they could save some $$$ by firing Flavio, who only cries about other teams being better than his, instead of getting the HELL on with developing his car.

I hate whiners, and anyone that calls these diffusors "illegal" after they have passed scrutineering at 2 events is included in this classification.

[Jersey Tom]

Maybe Renault need to find some new talent for their design department?

I bet they could save some $$$ by firing Flavio, who only cries about other teams being better than his, instead of getting the HELL on with developing his car.

I hate whiners, and anyone that calls these diffusors "illegal" after they have passed scrutineering at 2 events is included in this classification.

Didn't know you were an expert on the internal workings and personnel of Renault F1.

[xpensive]

Love him or loathe him, without a shred of experience, Briatore made Benetton/Renault winners, first with Schumacher, then with Alonso, there's no denying of that.

The drastic reduction of downforce from the floor was a FOTA idea, or at least very much supported, why I can fully understand he is pissed-off when the head of FOTAs technical arm, Ross Brawn, had a plan to circumvent said initiative.

Adapting to that "interpretation" is reported to cost Ferrari 20 MEUR, an expense Briatore simply don't have the budget for.

This is why my bet is that Renault will have had enough of all this political nonsense and leave by the end of 2009.

[NormanBates]

Adapting to that "interpretation" is reported to cost Ferrari 20 MEUR, an expense Briatore simply don't have the budget for.

I would like to know how that ferrari figure is calculated... my bet is that they said something like: it's gonna take a month of full-time from everybody, and out yearly budget is XXX, so this is (XXX-oneoffexpenses)/12=20Meur; quite a silly calculation, indeed

and yes, judging by briatore's crying about the difussers, they are truly broke (or close)

This is why my bet is that Renault will have had enough of all this political nonsense and leave by the end of 2009.

exactly like most fans, I would gess...

(I can only imagine all those european fans waking each other up on a beautiful sunday morning, saying "come on, fast, there's a bunch of wealthy people standing in the rain and you can watch them on TV!!"; or how were audience ratings, Mr. vertically challenged one?)

[kilcoo316]

I would like to know how that ferrari figure is calculated... my bet is that they said something like: it's gonna take a month of full-time from everybody, and out yearly budget is XXX, so this is (XXX-oneoffexpenses)/12=20Meur; quite a silly calculation, indeed

It most likely is the cost in terms of:

- design hours for both aerodynamic & mechanical elements
- manufacturing costs of the new parts


Gearboxes do not come cheap.

[The FOZ]

The reason for thin noses in F1 I believe is to let more air to the sidepods and underbody.

Off the top of my head...could this be some takeoff of the Whitcomb area rule? True, that pertains more directly to transonic airspeeds, but...maybe this could apply?

[timbo]

Off the top of my head...could this be some takeoff of the Whitcomb area rule? True, that pertains more directly to transonic airspeeds, but...maybe this could apply?

F1 cars are too slow to be affected by the rule. You have to travel around 0.8M o start feeling effects of it. Yeah, and what's funny Renault nose goes better along that rule than say RedBull nose

[Steven]

If Renault use this new diffuser that they have apparently been developing for a month, will there not have to be other aero developments as well? Surely they can just stick the diffuser on and hope for the best. I've only seen one image of the floor from testing and that looked like they were trying to direct the airflow to the sides and the 'side skirts' that they were using. Unlike Williams and Brawn who have been using the Snow Plough or w/e it's called, can we expect a new floor as well, or is a month too little time for a complete redesign?

Actually, they have 'tested the concept of it' in their windtunnel, they haven't been developing it for a month. They have probably given one guy the job to design something similar to Toyota's diffuser (as that one was earlier out in the winter than the Brawn) and just see what it would give in the windtunnel. Apparently it showed an extra 14% downforce just by sticking it on.

As for your second question, Pat Symonds already said after Melbourne - along with Alonso - that they cannot just glue it onto the car. Additional downforce at the rear will have to be compensated with front wing or splitter development, which may take another week - assuming they put that up high priority.

Symonds also said however that they might be able to run the new device at China if it's approved to be legal...

Maybe Renault need to find some new talent for their design department?

I bet they could save some $$$ by firing Flavio, who only cries about other teams being better than his, instead of getting the HELL on with developing his car.

I hate whiners, and anyone that calls these diffusors "illegal" after they have passed scrutineering at 2 events is included in this classification.

I think for Renault, sacking Briatore would likely be the dummest thing they can do right now. He is a great motivator for the team, an excellent representative and the strongest link between Alonso and Renault.

[Giblet]

I think this relates quite strongly to the Gordon Murray penned Brabham Fan Car from 1978.

The cars were so utterly dominant in their first race that were banned by the FIA, even though they were deemed legal, so the results stood from the first race.

Could the FIA just turn around and say "No" the diffuser rule interpretation, even if it was legal?

If this was the case, it would be interesting to see if BRAWN could also replicate Brabham in another way: going back to a single deck "legal" diffuser and still taking 2 race wins with a hindered car.

[axle]

I think this relates quite strongly to the Gordon Murray penned Brabham Fan Car from 1978.

The cars were so utterly dominant in their first race that were banned by the FIA, even though they were deemed legal, so the results stood from the first race.

Could the FIA just turn around and say "No" the diffuser rule interpretation, even if it was legal?

If this was the case, it would be interesting to see if BRAWN could also replicate Brabham in another way: going back to a single deck "legal" diffuser and still taking 2 race wins with a hindered car.

It's been said to death that the Brawn isn't just fast because of the trick diffuser. That team have done the best job all round, in getting the tyres to work, the diffuser is extending their advantage but it's not the whole story. If McLaren or Ferrari had thrown all of their resources at 2009 at the same time as Brawn/Honda did then I would expect them to be winning, but they didn't, so they arn't.

[PlatinumZealot]

I would like to know how that ferrari figure is calculated... my bet is that they said something like: it's gonna take a month of full-time from everybody, and out yearly budget is XXX, so this is (XXX-oneoffexpenses)/12=20Meur; quite a silly calculation, indeed

It most likely is the cost in terms of:

- design hours for both aerodynamic & mechanical elements
- manufacturing costs of the new parts


Gearboxes do not come cheap.

And to pay the engineers

If it was me i would simply (and Blatantly) copy the Brawn and just tweak it from there to match the car and just slap it on and test it. Huuuuge savings. why develop when BrawnGP was so kind to do it for you?

Eastern Car manufacturers do it all the time. Check out the Hyundai Genesis.

May not be 100% compatible but better than nothing, and a good starting point.