Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[wuzak]

Yeah accumaltors are banned.
The only way to cheat the flow meter without tampering with it is to inject the fuel somehow into the intake tract without using injectors.....

Any system that is designed to cheat the system is expressly forbidden.

Another way to get extra power is to have a gearbox or a low pressure tubine transfeeing torque from the turbocharger to the crankshaft. The beauty of this system is that it bypasses the kilowatt limit imposed on the MGUK power transfer to tbe crankshaft.

The rules forbid mechanical connection between turbine and crankshaft.

[wuzak]

been some discussion about lower Honda sound. I listened to video clips and it's clear the Honda is sometimes a full ocatave lower than mercedes. so I can think of a couple explanations-

1. they don't have even firing order and/or fire two cylinders at same time. this could be done for "big-bang" reasons.
2. when less than 50% torque is demanded by driver, the engine fires every other cylinder. They could even go over 50% torque with 3 cylinders because they would still be allowed 100% of max fuel flow. But I kind of doubt they went far in that direction.

both of the above explanations could create a big-bang effect, and/or help fuel economy. Big-bang is the trick for tire traction as originally done years ago for Honda racing motorcycles.

I noticed the pitch changed an octave up when the driver went from decel/coasting to accel. So I think there is a bit of cylinder deactivation or something active going on.

are they required to run all exhausts through the turbo all the time? I guess obviously not because a wastegate is precisely a bypass. Wonder if they completely wastegate one whole bank of cylinders during light torque demand?

They can bypass the turbine, but it has to go through the single exhaust pipe.

All of the engines run cylinder de-activation modes. It can be clearly heard on the Ferrari and Mercedes engines at low speeds too.

I would be suspicious of the tyre traction benefits of a big bang firing order for F1. I suspect that if they did use it that it would be for power purposes.

In Ted's Notebook day 3 of Jerez testing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouq8nYkjhXw) he states Honda still want to have 32 tokens for in season development.

That would be immensely unfair to the others.

[PlatinumZealot]

been some discussion about lower Honda sound. I listened to video clips and it's clear the Honda is sometimes a full ocatave lower than mercedes. so I can think of a couple explanations-

1. they don't have even firing order and/or fire two cylinders at same time. this could be done for "big-bang" reasons.
2. when less than 50% torque is demanded by driver, the engine fires every other cylinder. They could even go over 50% torque with 3 cylinders because they would still be allowed 100% of max fuel flow. But I kind of doubt they went far in that direction.

both of the above explanations could create a big-bang effect, and/or help fuel economy. Big-bang is the trick for tire traction as originally done years ago for Honda racing motorcycles.

I noticed the pitch changed an octave up when the driver went from decel/coasting to accel. So I think there is a bit of cylinder deactivation or something active going on.

are they required to run all exhausts through the turbo all the time? I guess obviously not because a wastegate is precisely a bypass. Wonder if they completely wastegate one whole bank of cylinders during light torque demand?

Interesting. I think all teams are doing that "Big bang" strategy. I was thinking about it the other day, but with the flow meter cap at 100kg/hr it is very likey that all teams are utilizing the full 100kg/hr into each injection event. So yeah, I think everybody is using the big bang and doing so with the full 100kg/hr. Because accumulators are banned no one can do for example a 400kg/hr "big bang" into each injection event.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yeah accumaltors are banned.
The only way to cheat the flow meter without tampering with it is to inject the fuel somehow into the intake tract without using injectors.....

Any system that is designed to cheat the system is expressly forbidden.

Another way to get extra power is to have a gearbox or a low pressure tubine transfeeing torque from the turbocharger to the crankshaft. The beauty of this system is that it bypasses the kilowatt limit imposed on the MGUK power transfer to tbe crankshaft.

The rules forbid mechanical connection between turbine and crankshaft.

What about a secondary, purely mechancial KERs flywheel connected to the crankshaft with a clutch? This is separate from the ERS system and hidden below the fuel tank.

[hurril]

Yeah accumaltors are banned.
The only way to cheat the flow meter without tampering with it is to inject the fuel somehow into the intake tract without using injectors.....

Any system that is designed to cheat the system is expressly forbidden.

Another way to get extra power is to have a gearbox or a low pressure tubine transfeeing torque from the turbocharger to the crankshaft. The beauty of this system is that it bypasses the kilowatt limit imposed on the MGUK power transfer to tbe crankshaft.

The rules forbid mechanical connection between turbine and crankshaft.

What about a secondary, purely mechancial KERs flywheel connected to the crankshaft with a clutch? This is separate from the ERS system and hidden below the fuel tank.

One way would be to have the MGU-K permanently connected to a flywheel. It could provide a benefit if there's more breaking power available than the 160kW worth maximum input to the battery. With a flywheel, the KERS could continue feeding the battery a second or two longer.

On the other hand, more inertia would have to be overcome in motor mode.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yes. I would use a clutch to decouple the flywheel when it is not needed. I drew a quick sketch below:



Can anyone tell me If this loophole exists? (start a new thread?) What if Honda is doing this?

[mrluke]

been some discussion about lower Honda sound. I listened to video clips and it's clear the Honda is sometimes a full ocatave lower than mercedes. so I can think of a couple explanations-

1. they don't have even firing order and/or fire two cylinders at same time. this could be done for "big-bang" reasons.
2. when less than 50% torque is demanded by driver, the engine fires every other cylinder. They could even go over 50% torque with 3 cylinders because they would still be allowed 100% of max fuel flow. But I kind of doubt they went far in that direction.

both of the above explanations could create a big-bang effect, and/or help fuel economy. Big-bang is the trick for tire traction as originally done years ago for Honda racing motorcycles.

I noticed the pitch changed an octave up when the driver went from decel/coasting to accel. So I think there is a bit of cylinder deactivation or something active going on.

are they required to run all exhausts through the turbo all the time? I guess obviously not because a wastegate is precisely a bypass. Wonder if they completely wastegate one whole bank of cylinders during light torque demand?

Could be that they aren't making boost at that RPM / throttle position. That would change the engine sound significantly and given the early stages of testing with Honda expecting to bring a new PU revision to each of the next 2 tests it wouldn't be surprising to be very conservative on the ERS / MGUH interaction.

[dren]

That's my guess. I bet they weren't running much if any MGUH interaction. From reading reports, it sounds like you could hear turbo lag.

[Vortex37]

Yes. I would use a clutch to decouple the flywheel when it is not needed. I drew a quick sketch below:
Can anyone tell me If this loophole exists? (start a new thread?) What if Honda is doing this?

See my post and some following, in July 2014, from the main engine thread. There is also some discussion by others, on the type of clutch.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 42#p525242

x

[PlatinumZealot]

Ok. interesting proposal. We can start a new thread on this. The engine forum has been a bit dead of late.

[Blanchimont]

Sorry for spoiling the party...

"5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to propel the car, is not permitted."

[hurril]

Sorry for spoiling the party...

"5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to propel the car, is not permitted."

The idea was not to provide for more direct propulsion, rather for the flywheel to act as a second makeshift energy store.

[gruntguru]

What is the benefit of storing energy other than to later propel the car?

[langwadt]

Sorry for spoiling the party...

"5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to propel the car, is not permitted."

The idea was not to provide for more direct propulsion, rather for the flywheel to act as a second makeshift energy store.

on the diagram of power unit energy flow:

Max 300kJ energy stored on car outside of single ERS, Max 20kJ recovered at a rate greater than 2kW

[PlatinumZealot]

Sorry for spoiling the party...

"5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to propel the car, is not permitted."

The idea was not to provide for more direct propulsion, rather for the flywheel to act as a second makeshift energy store.

I was thinkiNg of a device to ppropel the car.. Lol