2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[Phil]

Instead of bashing in on Kimi for not doing what you think he should have done, perhaps you should be asking what Vettel was doing racing his team-mate in places with zero opportunity? The run up to T1 is very, very short. They all had a decent start and it was never going to be the place to enforce team-order, change position or wave past anyone without compromising your own line into T1 or T3. Vettel still attempted something and compromised his own line into T2 and drive up to T3.

Then, again, what was Vettel doing into T3? He again had zero opportunity for a legitimate pass on his own team-mate. It was never going to work, I have no idea why he even placed his car there.

If I was Ferrari, e.g.; the team, I would have advised both of them to block both Mercedes into T1/T2 and fight it out later in the race when the race is normalised. I'm quite confident, Vettel would have easily won the race if he had gotten through the first lap in 2nd position. There would have been heaps of opportunity for the team to swap him on strategy or he could simply have gotten the win by driving better around the pit-window. But no, Vettel, for some reason thought he was racing for the win on the first 4 corners of the race.

The interesting psychology in this, is that perhaps once again, Kimi is racing for himself, if the rumours are true that Ferrari are bound to sign Leclerc for 2019.

In any case, even if the team did decide on using team-orders to get Vettel to win the race from a 1-2, it was never the best time to orchestrate a position swap on the first 400m with two Mercedes right behind you.

[Sevach]

Instead of bashing in on Kimi for not doing what you think he should have done, perhaps you should be asking what Vettel was doing racing his team-mate in places with zero opportunity? The run up to T1 is very, very short. They all had a decent start and it was never going to be the place to enforce team-order, change position or wave past anyone without compromising your own line into T1 or T3. Vettel still attempted something and compromised his own line into T2 and drive up to T3.

Then, again, what was Vettel doing into T3? He again had zero opportunity for a legitimate pass on his own team-mate. It was never going to work, I have no idea why he even placed his car there.

If I was Ferrari, e.g.; the team, I would have advised both of them to block both Mercedes into T1/T2 and fight it out later in the race when the race is normalised. I'm quite confident, Vettel would have easily won the race if he had gotten through the first lap in 2nd position. There would have been heaps of opportunity for the team to swap him on strategy or he could simply have gotten the win by driving better around the pit-window. But no, Vettel, for some reason thought he was racing for the win on the first 4 corners of the race.

There interesting psychology in this, is that perhaps once again, Kimi is racing for himself, if the rumours are true that Ferrari are bound to sign Leclerc for 2019.

In any case, even if the team did decide on using team-orders to get Vettel to win the race from a 1-2, it was never the best time to orchestrate a position swap on the first 400m with two Mercedes right behind you.

My original post says they are both idiots.

I just explained why mr Raikkonen is an idiot because everyone already seems to understand why Vettel is an idiot.

[Phil]

Fair enough, though I still don't know what Kimi should have done better, even if he had the best intent for his team and Vettels championship. Attempting any position swap with both Mercedes 10m behind you is just idiotic. And to be fair; If there was no game-plan on Ferrari's side, why is it Kimi's obligation to do so? He is there to do the best job for himself.

Just ask yourself; If you were the team; would you come up with any plan that included swapping positions on the first 4 corners? Lets be frank; Ferrari had the best package. If not, at the very least equal. It just seems idiotic to come up with any sort of plan that involves complex swapping at that stage of the race when everything is pretty unpredictable anyway and the entire grid behind you in close proximity...

[Big Tea]

I would have expected the Ferraris to stay side by side as long as possible so there would be no room to overtake int the first corner.
Almost as soon as they were rolling they went line astern.

[TAG]

Bottas and Hamilton have successfully orchestrated to keep a Ferrari behind a couple of times this year. I'm simply shocked Ferrari wouldn't be able to do likewise, especially at Monza.

[thetruth]

It seems that Charles Lelerc will be a new Ferrari driver for 2019.
Turrini (Ferrari insider) pretty sure about this.

[mika vs michael]

Hamilton's confidence and maximised performance and also maturity stems from the fact that he is a clear no 1...it was a different story when there was Rosberg in the team. Hamilton for the time being is doing a better job than Vettel. The problem for Ferrari is that they act as if they have 2 drivers fighting for the WDC while in reality there is only one. if their focus is the WCC then it's ok but traditionally their focus was the WDC...

[TAG]

Both Raikkonen and Vettel produced 3 personal best sectors on their final quali laps. Hamilton produced only 1, in the second sector. I think the race illustrated - to me anyway - that Hamilton perhaps didn't get the best from his car on that final lap, because he had pace in hand to be comfortably faster than Kimi, especially once degradation became a factor.

Hamilton told that he could have just gone half a tenth faster at best. And he told that they, in fact, squeezed everything out of the car.

Which is clearly complete BS, because his individual best sector times generate a 1:19.209, already 0.085 faster than he managed.

Summing up best sectors and adding up their time to get a max is a fallacy. because how you set up a sector to transition into another is how to improve the TOTAL lap time, being fast in one sector can mean you're on the back foot for the next depending on the transitions. You have to look at a fast lap as a body of work, in the real world, there's no way to pick and choose best sectors and splice them together.

[Sevach]

Fair enough, though I still don't know what Kimi should have done better, even if he had the best intent for his team and Vettels championship. Attempting any position swap with both Mercedes 10m behind you is just idiotic. And to be fair; If there was no game-plan on Ferrari's side, why is it Kimi's obligation to do so? He is there to do the best job for himself.

Just ask yourself; If you were the team; would you come up with any plan that included swapping positions on the first 4 corners? Lets be frank; Ferrari had the best package. If not, at the very least equal. It just seems idiotic to come up with any sort of plan that involves complex swapping at that stage of the race when everything is pretty unpredictable anyway and the entire grid behind you in close proximity...

I give you it's difficult to plan something like this at the start, you never know what can happen.
But if there's a clear opportunity why not? Schumacher and Irvine did multiple times and they didn't even need to be told, seemed second nature.

From the management side i think at the very least they should've told Kimi not to move to block Sebastian immediately after the start and worry more about Hamilton.
Kimi starts the race and immediately moves into Vettel's line, the immediate(and biggest) threat that isn't a Ferrari driver is on the outside, but he cares about keeping Vettel behind.

They go somewhat slow after T1 because they are braking side by side, and again on the run to T3 Kimi is crowding Vettel.

Nobody can say he has the team and the championship best interests at heart because his actions go against that,maybe he would obbey a direct "switch" order later on, but at the very least he wants to do it with very obvious and public acknowledgement of that.

Vettel is an idiot because he is single minded and doesn't adapt, Raikkonen is an idiot because he's selfish guy out for himself.

[AnthonyG]

The only one to blame for Vettel's spin is Vettel. The only one to blame for Vettel not being on pole is Vettel. The only one to blame for his points loss prior to this race is Vettel. The only one to blame for not winning the driver's title this year will be Vettel.

Vettel is a championship winning driver that does great things sometimes, but my god, he f*cked his race up, not someone else, not his teammate, not his team.

I can't believe how you can even argue about this.

[Sevach]

The only one to blame for Vettel's spin is Vettel. The only one to blame for Vettel not being on pole is Vettel. The only one to blame for his points loss prior to this race is Vettel. The only one to blame for not winning the driver's title this year will be Vettel.

Vettel is a championship winning driver that does great things sometimes, but my god, he f*cked his race up, not someone else, not his teammate, not his team.

I can't believe how you can even argue about this.

Not arguing that, but Kimi's actions and management inaction was not in the best interests of Ferrari winning these championships, i don't know how that can be argued either...

[mika vs michael]

Raikkonen won his one and ever title with the help of Massa in Brazil 2007. F1 is a team sport. Hamilton seems to have more backing from his team compared to Vettel.

[foxmulder_ms]

The only one to blame for Vettel's spin is Vettel. The only one to blame for Vettel not being on pole is Vettel. The only one to blame for his points loss prior to this race is Vettel. The only one to blame for not winning the driver's title this year will be Vettel.

Vettel is a championship winning driver that does great things sometimes, but my god, he f*cked his race up, not someone else, not his teammate, not his team.

I can't believe how you can even argue about this.

Not arguing that, but Kimi's actions and management inaction was not in the best interests of Ferrari winning these championships, i don't know how that can be argued either...

Kimi is *perfect* for Ferrari. Alas it is their choice.

[AnthonyG]

The only one to blame for Vettel's spin is Vettel. The only one to blame for Vettel not being on pole is Vettel. The only one to blame for his points loss prior to this race is Vettel. The only one to blame for not winning the driver's title this year will be Vettel.

Vettel is a championship winning driver that does great things sometimes, but my god, he f*cked his race up, not someone else, not his teammate, not his team.

I can't believe how you can even argue about this.

Not arguing that, but Kimi's actions and management inaction was not in the best interests of Ferrari winning these championships, i don't know how that can be argued either...

What championships do you mean? Constructors and drivers?

Constructors: you win this one by having the two best drivers you can find and then forbid them to race eachother.

Drivers: you win this one by having the two best drivers, forbid them to race eachother until one starts to come out on top. (mostly due to reliability, some bad luck...) and then prioritize this driver as much as possible.

The thing we forget about this is how this optimum strategy is often against the character of the drivers. (cfr Vettel and Webber Multi 21)

Looking at how Kimi acts in the team, he's a perfect fit and does his job. Same goes for Bottas at Mercedes.

For this race: Kimi did his best, Vettel should have yielded to Hamilton and get the spot back on strategy. Or accept his P3 with Hamilton P2.

(And to be honnest, I don't think Vettel would be such a good teamplayer if he were the driver struck by bad luck this season and the one being .050 behind in some qualifying sessions earlier this season)

[Sevach]

What championships do you mean? Constructors and drivers?

Constructors: you win this one by having the two best drivers you can find and then forbid them to race eachother.

Drivers: you win this one by having the two best drivers, forbid them to race eachother until one starts to come out on top. (mostly due to reliability, some bad luck...) and then prioritize this driver as much as possible.

The thing we forget about this is how this optimum strategy is often against the character of the drivers. (cfr Vettel and Webber Multi 21)

Looking at how Kimi acts in the team, he's a perfect fit and does his job. Same goes for Bottas at Mercedes.

For this race: Kimi did his best, Vettel should have yielded to Hamilton and get the spot back on strategy. Or accept his P3 with Hamilton P2.

(And to be honnest, I don't think Vettel would be such a good teamplayer if he were the driver struck by bad luck this season and the one being .050 behind in some qualifying sessions earlier this season)

Drivers specifically, Constructor points is all on Vettel, who as you say should have slotted behind Hamilton and kept the fight going.

But how exactly "perfect fit" defending against Vettel helps the drivers championship?

And you are right Vettel would probably be just as selfish if not more, but when you perform like a doormat your attitude should match it, the worst possible thing is an underperforming driver with an ego, and that's what Kimi is right now.