2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[ISLAMATRON]

For me, it got tiresome to the xtent I had to take two weeks off from F1Technical.

Back this week and what do I get?

Nobody forces you to read anybody's post... you guys are overreacting.... he does not put his posts accross as divine truth as you claim. Just because you dont like what he says or how he says it does not give you(not you specifically) the right to call him a Nazi or Hilter or whatever.

After all this is just all about sport, play and make believe... this is not real life... regardless of how passionate we are about the sport.

[Conceptual]

For me, it got tiresome to the xtent I had to take two weeks off from F1Technical.

Back this week and what do I get?

More off topic chat by people that know better?

[DaveKillens]

From Max's rantings, it seems that only those teams willing to accept the budget cap will be allowed to play in his sandbox.
OK, the timeline is simple. The teams gather this weekend in Turkey for the Grand Prix. This is their best chance to hammer out some kind of resolution. Next Friday, the 12th of June, the FIA will announce next year's successful applicants. Then, whatever happens happens.
Personally, I am certain of only two things. There will be at least one new team in Formula One, and that Williams will be there too. Anything else is just speculation and wishful thinking.

[timbo]

Here's a nice snippet of 2010 vs 2009 and earlier regulations

2009:

Amendments to these regulations for 2008 and 2009 will be made in accordance with Clause 8.10 of the 1998 Concorde Agreement.

2010:

Changes to these or to the sporting regulations which, in the opinion of the FIA Technical Department, involve significant change to the design of a car, will be announced no later than 30 June to come into force for the next season but one. Changes needed for safety reasons may be introduced with shorter notice in consultation with the currently competing teams.

[ISLAMATRON]

Why only 1 Dave? I thought that there would be no less than 3.

[Conceptual]

I just want to know what happens if the FOTA 9 don't get accepted for the 2010 season.

Will they immediately shut down their 2009 operations in F1 and focus on designing/building/testing for a new series, or will they use F1 to develop their 2009 cars and start a breakaway series in 2010 with the 2009 "end-of-season" spec F1 cars?

Alot of questions to be answered within the next week or so!

And if Bernie was smart about this, he should be offering to organize the breakaway series with FOTA (with a more equal money share), so he could still rape the F1 teams AND get some new money because the breakaway will effective double the fans interest.

Bernie could come out of this with his feet in both flowerbeds, and smelling like a rose!

[Scotracer]

As long as they make the cars 2m wide again they can do whatever else they want

[timbo]

Will they immediately shut down their 2009 operations in F1 and focus on designing/building/testing for a new series, or will they use F1 to develop their 2009 cars and start a breakaway series in 2010 with the 2009 "end-of-season" spec F1 cars?

Here's Mario Theissen interview on the subject
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75813

he does not give direct answer but probably hints that there were some discussion within FOTA about their actions given that outcome.

[ISLAMATRON]

Will they immediately shut down their 2009 operations in F1 and focus on designing/building/testing for a new series, or will they use F1 to develop their 2009 cars and start a breakaway series in 2010 with the 2009 "end-of-season" spec F1 cars?

Here's Mario Theissen interview on the subject
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75813

he does not give direct answer but probably hints that there were some discussion within FOTA about their actions given that outcome.

It would be really gangsta if they just quit right there, just stopped racing as of july 12... but they dont have the balls... nor the lawyers to deal with all the problems it would bring them

[donskar]

OK: on topic and free of biase, here are two passages quoted from a single piece currently on Autosport.com:

On one side, FOTA:

Formula 1's current teams remain wholly committed to finding a solution to their dispute with the FIA over the future of the sport, . . .

With no solution yet in sight in the row over a £40 million budget cap for next year, the nine members of the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) are awaiting a response from the FIA about the conditions they laid down for them to enter next year's championship. . . .

And directly from Mario Theissen:

We are now really committed to find a solution with the FIA to go forward together

And, on the other side, Max Mosley:

the teams have not yet had an official response from the FIA about the conditions of their entry, Mosley suggested in an interview with Motorsport Aktuell that if FOTA was unhappy with the proposed rules it should form a breakaway championship.

On this evidence, I think an impartial observer would say that FOTA is being the more open of the two sides, more open to discussion and cooperation, (but I did say "impartial").

And, really interesting:

Theissen also revealed that the decision by FOTA to lodge conditional entries was suggested to them by Mosley.

"When we had the meeting with Max [Mosley] in Monaco, it was his idea to put in a conditional entry," he said.

[WhiteBlue]

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[donskar]

Sorry my post was one of a flurry on the same piece, but what do we make of Theissen saying that Max suggested the conditional entry?

1) Theissen telling a bald-faced lie in print?

2) Mosley so duplicitous and Machiavellian that no one (including himsalf?) knows what he's really after?

3) FOTA stupid and/or naive?

I think we can eliminate 1) and 3)

[ISLAMATRON]

DONSKAR... MAx has already raised the cap level to 40 MIL , excluded driver/engine & hospitality costs... is that not being open and giving in the negotiation process?

And if he told them to submit conditional entries then maybe he is trying to help them in negotiations with BE... like earlier this year when he told FOTA that if they wanted to break away from FOM an start there own series the FIA would be happy to regulate it for them.

It is Ferrari & Toyota(not so much, they are just trying to get out and save face doing it) that are so opposed to a budget cap and the FIA being able to look into their books. The other team are just trying to get more money out of BE. Max need the budget cap for the new teams... MAx has made concessions but i dont see how new teams(needed to fill the holes and protect from some manufacturers leaving regardless) can come on without the budget cap or customer cars(which the court have already rules on Williams side)

[bill shoe]

donkster, I vote #2.

When I first read the blurbs about Theissen saying Mosley suggested the conditional entries I didn't understand. Then a few minutes later I had an Oh-My-God! moment. There was something defensive or victim-y about the way Theissen said it, not to mention the fact that he was already trying to distance himself from the FOTA decision.

Yes, I think Mosley decided to break FOTA by gently suggesting they unite behind an untennable position. Then Mosley ignores these impossible demands. This eventually forces some of the teams to individually crawl back to the FIA with late entries. Exit FOTA.

Observations:

1. Wow!, whether you like Max or not, he is really good at getting what he wants. Machiavelli is currently sitting in hell thinking "Oh crap, never mess with Max".

2. I think Toyota wants to get out but wants to do so due to a governance spat as opposed to them simply leaving of their own accord after $1-2 billion spent and zero wins. If you have never worked for a Japanese company you would not truly appreciate the severity of Toyota's discomfort. They will not do a late entry and they will have the cover they want to leave.

3. Ferrari has acheived stupendous F1 success over the last 10 or 15 years with barrels of Marlboro cash and special treatment from the FIA. They are not optimistic they can continue this success with equal budgets and equal treatment, so instead of floundering and sinking their brand image they will also leave because of a governance spat. They will also have the cover story they need.

4. Renault may leave or sell out rather than do the late entry thing. They have been open about considering leaving anyway, so I don't really think they need any false cover.

5. Dieter may pull his Red Bull teams as an ego thing when FOTA loses. I don't blame him, why should he stay?

6. Is it plausible that any other team can really afford to leave F1? BMW after a 10-year build-up towards being championship contenders? McLaren? Brawn? OK, I'm back from laughing now.

7. I can't help but notice that the chairman and vice-chairman of FOTA are from Ferrari and Toyota, the two teams that really, really need a governance argument as cover if they leave F1.

Until now I didn't understand the end game in all this. Now I do and I nominate donkster for "First Person on F1 Technical to Figure It Out".

[ISLAMATRON]

nobody likes Max... but that is besides the point that something needs to be done to save the small teams, get new teams in, and protect against a mass exodus of the manufacturers precipitated by Honda.

Max and the FIA is the only one with a plan