2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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214270
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Dunlay wrote:
26 Aug 2024, 07:05
214270 wrote:
26 Aug 2024, 06:07
Dunlay wrote:
26 Aug 2024, 03:22
Data doesn't suggest that.
The data indicates RUS pace was poor & not getting better; he was at risk.

https://i.ibb.co/1JS2h9w/IMG-2541.png
https://i.ibb.co/gwYVWPP/IMG-2543.png

Whichever way you slice it, gap forward to LEC or gap backward to HAM - both made significant inroads against RUS during the H-tyre stint (you can calc the gaps yourself), HAM circa 0.230/lap faster. SAI likely had the pace to pass & the trendline indicates RUS wouldve been at risk to PER towards the end (who also had a 4/5 lap tyre offset). HAM close to PER at the end depending on the trendline

https://i.ibb.co/Xx89LG1/IMG-2544.png
Actual lap times below.

1. Lewis was half a second slower in the first stint. He was obviously stuck behind cars. But that's the "data". That's the penalty for not having a good qualifying.
2. There was an average difference of 7 to 8 tenths between Lewis and George in second stint. If that represents George's performance, then one has to relook at the entire season's race performance difference. It just shows that the setup was not up to the mark for Hards on his car. May be it was more biased towards Mediums and Softs.
3. In 3rd stint on Softs, they were almost equal. That nullifies the argument that George was slower.
2. The performance gap to Sainz was around half a second and that was not enough difference to overtake a car ahead. We saw Piastri struggling to overtake Leclerc with similar margin. Carlos may or may not have overtaken, but would have certainly damaged his tyres running behind George.
3. Perez had bigger degradation than George. So he wouldn't have certainly overtaken George. Red Bull would have boxed Perez to cover Lewis, which means they had fight it off to reach George, with 1 second advantage and 24 to 26 seconds to close in 23 laps. Would that have happened? Anybody's guess.

So that pit stop for George was a clueless job from Mercedes. It's not the first time though.

https://i.postimg.cc/PJnQ6wbM/dutch-gp.png
No, most of this is misinformed. Firstly, the plot I attached is a representation of lap time in a way that’s far more useful & with less noise. It’s a plot of everyone’s gap to the race leader. From this we can ascertain pace & distance relative to the race leader and to each other. Individual lap time data won’t tell the story of the leading group. Given all that, I’ll comment to your numbered points.

1. OPs initial question was, the reason behind 2-stopping RUS. The pace in the 1st stint hasn’t a lot to do with the switch. It was the pace in the 2nd stint (H) which influenced the conversion.
2. I’ve no idea where you’ve gotten this. I attached 2 screenshots earlier - RUS out of the pits after his 1st stop (lap 26) & HAM 2nd stop (lap 49). In the first, gap forward to LEC is 1.4s & gap back to HAM is 15s. By lap 49, the gap forward to LEC was 6.7s & the gap back to HAM was 10s. RUS lost out significantly & both made inroads.
3. 3rd stint like the 1st is again pretty irrelevant to the base question. Either way RUS was again slower; I’m not sure how many laps his S had done, but HAM again closed the gap.
2(4). I refer you to the orig graphic. SAI plot/pace was actually fantastic (quite flat) - better than his teammate in that stint. So what we had was the pilot with amongst the flattest plot/one of the quickest vs RUS who has the steepest plot (losing the most time out of the top 8 to NOR in that period); SAI gets it done on track
3(5). To argue PER had worse deg his plot would need to be steeper than RUS, it clearly isn’t. RUS has easily the steepest out of the front 8 & is losing the most time.

I’ve sketched a pretty favourable trendline for RUS below, you can see PER crosses towards the end of the race. Furthermore, overlaying LEC curve on HAM gives an indication of whether HAM would also be in the mix if he also 1-stopped & raced a decent race himself (a la LEC). For the avoidance of doubt, HAM plot too would cross RUS plot before race end. Those are the reasons for the conversion to a 2-stop I’d wager. Whilst they may not have actually passed on track, as I said before RUS was at risk - no pitwall brain fart behind the decision.

EDIT: 4 lap S for RUS fitted on his last stint, better than HAM by 3.
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Luscion
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Kimi will be driving George's car in FP1 at Monza and not Lewis'


PapayaFan481
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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What is it with fans of the same team fighting over which driver is better? Can't we all just support both drivers??
If I come across as blunt, I apologise, it's my ASD. Sometimes, like an F1 car aqua-planing, it gets out of my control.

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dans79
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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PapayaFan481 wrote:
26 Aug 2024, 17:44
What is it with fans of the same team fighting over which driver is better? Can't we all just support both drivers??
what? You expect everyone to like everyone else?
201 105 104 9 9 7

ab_f1
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Second stop for George was intriguing. Not only it lost him position, it also put him just ahead of Lewis. Given the gap it must had an impact on Lewis' pace.
Could Lewis' pace be even better without George just ahead?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Luscion wrote:
26 Aug 2024, 16:54
Kimi will be driving George's car in FP1 at Monza and not Lewis'

Yeah. Georgie fluffed the setup when given the charge in Holland, and the team cannot afford for him to fluff it again! I see why they want the more experienced driver to handle the setups moving forward.
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Racing Green in 2028

PapayaFan481
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
26 Aug 2024, 17:48
PapayaFan481 wrote:
26 Aug 2024, 17:44
What is it with fans of the same team fighting over which driver is better? Can't we all just support both drivers??
what? You expect everyone to like everyone else?
No, but I can't remember this level of toxicity between fans of the same team for ages.

Thank god there was no social media in the Prost Senna days!!!
If I come across as blunt, I apologise, it's my ASD. Sometimes, like an F1 car aqua-planing, it gets out of my control.

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Cocles
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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PapayaFan481 wrote:
27 Aug 2024, 02:48
dans79 wrote:
26 Aug 2024, 17:48
PapayaFan481 wrote:
26 Aug 2024, 17:44
What is it with fans of the same team fighting over which driver is better? Can't we all just support both drivers??
what? You expect everyone to like everyone else?
No, but I can't remember this level of toxicity between fans of the same team for ages.

Thank god there was no social media in the Prost Senna days!!!
They're not fans of the same team though, a lot of them are Lewis tifosi who will drop the Silver Arrows like a hot potato next season for the red cars, and (some) will be back in here acting like the Max fans they despise so much. George is either useful for Lewis, or he's a spoiler; there's no, "liking him, because he's a Merc driver." And they only cheer for Merc, because it hold's the title of "Lewis's car." Merc has tifosi as well, but they're also Lewis & George fans the way Ferrari fans have a soft-spot for Ferrari drivers both past and present.

I don't mean to dunk on the Lewis fans, it's just the nature of fandom. The Dutch will drop RB the moment Max leaves. From the perspective of a "team first, drivers second" type of fan (like me) it's a trade-off. Sure, some of the Lewis fans will be insufferable trolls here next season, but... Back in late 2012, this place was almost unbearable with the amount of Merc haters relentlessly trolling the Merc fans. That all changed when the Lewis fans showed up like the cavalry and overwhelmed/drove-out the trolls for hating on their hero's new car.

Dunlay
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Cocles wrote:
27 Aug 2024, 03:31
PapayaFan481 wrote:
27 Aug 2024, 02:48
dans79 wrote:
26 Aug 2024, 17:48


what? You expect everyone to like everyone else?
No, but I can't remember this level of toxicity between fans of the same team for ages.

Thank god there was no social media in the Prost Senna days!!!
They're not fans of the same team though, a lot of them are Lewis tifosi who will drop the Silver Arrows like a hot potato next season for the red cars, and (some) will be back in here acting like the Max fans they despise so much. George is either useful for Lewis, or he's a spoiler; there's no, "liking him, because he's a Merc driver." And they only cheer for Merc, because it hold's the title of "Lewis's car." Merc has tifosi as well, but they're also Lewis & George fans the way Ferrari fans have a soft-spot for Ferrari drivers both past and present.

I don't mean to dunk on the Lewis fans, it's just the nature of fandom. The Dutch will drop RB the moment Max leaves. From the perspective of a "team first, drivers second" type of fan (like me) it's a trade-off. Sure, some of the Lewis fans will be insufferable trolls here next season, but... Back in late 2012, this place was almost unbearable with the amount of Merc haters relentlessly trolling the Merc fans. That all changed when the Lewis fans showed up like the cavalry and overwhelmed/drove-out the trolls for hating on their hero's new car.
So, I am not alone. There are more here. :)

PapayaFan481
PapayaFan481
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Dunlay wrote:
27 Aug 2024, 04:52
Cocles wrote:
27 Aug 2024, 03:31
PapayaFan481 wrote:
27 Aug 2024, 02:48


No, but I can't remember this level of toxicity between fans of the same team for ages.

Thank god there was no social media in the Prost Senna days!!!
They're not fans of the same team though, a lot of them are Lewis tifosi who will drop the Silver Arrows like a hot potato next season for the red cars, and (some) will be back in here acting like the Max fans they despise so much. George is either useful for Lewis, or he's a spoiler; there's no, "liking him, because he's a Merc driver." And they only cheer for Merc, because it hold's the title of "Lewis's car." Merc has tifosi as well, but they're also Lewis & George fans the way Ferrari fans have a soft-spot for Ferrari drivers both past and present.

I don't mean to dunk on the Lewis fans, it's just the nature of fandom. The Dutch will drop RB the moment Max leaves. From the perspective of a "team first, drivers second" type of fan (like me) it's a trade-off. Sure, some of the Lewis fans will be insufferable trolls here next season, but... Back in late 2012, this place was almost unbearable with the amount of Merc haters relentlessly trolling the Merc fans. That all changed when the Lewis fans showed up like the cavalry and overwhelmed/drove-out the trolls for hating on their hero's new car.
So, I am not alone. There are more here. :)
I'm a team first, drivers second guy too. I hold a soft spot for all ex-McLaren drivers....well most....
If I come across as blunt, I apologise, it's my ASD. Sometimes, like an F1 car aqua-planing, it gets out of my control.

rijtuig
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Just like some fans are more fan of Hamilton than the Silver Arrows, we will have F1 "fans" that love disregard evertyhing from Hamilton. I just got a warning for saying this.

But let me explain:

Same as when RUScame in to the picture, lots of fans tried to amplify every little win over Hamilton: "this guy is getting old, time to retire, rusis already showing better results, alonso is better, he just had the fastest car".

Looking at this season - where he is schooling again a big portion of the grid, the frustration starts again. I never understood the negative stuff directed towards Ham.

Matt2725
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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rijtuig wrote:
27 Aug 2024, 09:39
Just like some fans are more fan of Hamilton than the Silver Arrows, we will have F1 "fans" that love disregard evertyhing from Hamilton. I just got a warning for saying this.

But let me explain:

Same as when RUScame in to the picture, lots of fans tried to amplify every little win over Hamilton: "this guy is getting old, time to retire, rusis already showing better results, alonso is better, he just had the fastest car".

Looking at this season - where he is schooling again a big portion of the grid, the frustration starts again. I never understood the negative stuff directed towards Ham.
There's unnecessary vitriol in both directions.
A lot of LH fans had their noses put out of joint when GR was quite clearly more competitive than the outgoing Bottas. GR obviously wanted to stamp his mark on the team and that didn't sit well with many LH fans. And yes a lot of GR fans wanted to see him succeed, even at the expense of his multiple time champion teammate.

Things will be more harmonious next season I'd imagine. Unless you're a Ferrari fan at least :D

djones
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I'm a fan of drivers regardless of team. It's interesting to see a split of how/what people support.

What I would say though is there is an extra dimension. You have people who support a driver or team, then you have some people who hate a driver or team (arguably more than they support something).

For example, LH fans don't really care about GR. In the same way that MV fans won't care who his teammate is or what they get up to.

Arguments start because you have LH haters who try and say things like GR is better, then fans of LH try to defend it.

The reality is (and everybody knows deep down) that LH is better than GR. Always has been and always will be. LH has had as many race wins this year (in relatively speaking a dog of a car) as GR does in his entire career after 119 starts. GR has his moments and does have speed, but generally falls down when it comes to race day. And unfortunately, that is where it counts. It's why he will never be a world champion.

Matt2725
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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djones wrote:
27 Aug 2024, 16:54
I'm a fan of drivers regardless of team. It's interesting to see a split of how/what people support.

What I would say though is there is an extra dimension. You have people who support a driver or team, then you have some people who hate a driver or team (arguably more than they support something).

For example, LH fans don't really care about GR. In the same way that MV fans won't care who his teammate is or what they get up to.

Arguments start because you have LH haters who try and say things like GR is better, then fans of LH try to defend it.

The reality is (and everybody knows deep down) that LH is better than GR. Always has been and always will be. LH has had as many race wins this year (in relatively speaking a dog of a car) as GR does in his entire career after 119 starts. GR has his moments and does have speed, but generally falls down when it comes to race day. And unfortunately, that is where it counts. It's why he will never be a world champion.
If that's your take on GR, then it's something I won't argue against because it's impossible to know where to begin with it.

Any real, sensible person is fully aware GR has the ability, speed and talent to win a world championship. That's all I will say on the matter.

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Quantum
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Cocles wrote:
27 Aug 2024, 03:31
They're not fans of the same team though, a lot of them are Lewis tifosi who will drop the Silver Arrows like a hot potato next season for the red cars, and (some) will be back in here acting like the Max fans they despise so much. George is either useful for Lewis, or he's a spoiler; there's no, "liking him, because he's a Merc driver." And they only cheer for Merc, because it hold's the title of "Lewis's car." Merc has tifosi as well, but they're also Lewis & George fans the way Ferrari fans have a soft-spot for Ferrari drivers both past and present.

I don't mean to dunk on the Lewis fans, it's just the nature of fandom. The Dutch will drop RB the moment Max leaves. From the perspective of a "team first, drivers second" type of fan (like me) it's a trade-off. Sure, some of the Lewis fans will be insufferable trolls here next season, but... Back in late 2012, this place was almost unbearable with the amount of Merc haters relentlessly trolling the Merc fans. That all changed when the Lewis fans showed up like the cavalry and overwhelmed/drove-out the trolls for hating on their hero's new car.
Max possibly being in a Merc in the next couple of seasons has certainly reduced a lot of negative traffic to this thread.
Lending your theory credence.
Though, Lewis leaving has unfortunately introduced a different variety of negative undertone.
Driver maxi's drop teams on a whim depending on their chosen drivers steed.
Nothing wrong with that. The problem that arises is one of the emotive, reactionary, belittling, conspiratorial and threatening tones. No need for it. You might end up supporting that team again someday when the next messiah is born and all who fail to worship said idol are (insert insults here).
"Interplay of triads"