RB Traction Control yin yang

[Kiril Varbanov]

What I would dearly love to see was a proper analysis of a sound trace of Vettel v Webber v other Renault engines from Singapore....

So do I, as ex-sound engineer I can tell a lot, but only from the sound perspective, then a guess as to why this sounds like that. So, not much inference, me thinks

Your opinion is also backed by Matthew Somerfield, blogger and tech analyst, who writes about it, too.

Above all, I don't think that Red Bull would risk loosing all points and a clear double championships with making something like that (illegal).

ADMIN NOTE: Our main page poll suggests that 90% of you think the season is over due to Red Bull's form Thanks for participating.
I'm running a new poll on the front page to gather the opinions: Do you think that Red Bull had been using illegal means to obtain performance gain?

[Juzh]

I'm running a new poll on the front page to gather the opinions: Do you think that Red Bull had been using illegal means to obtain performance gain?

This poll has a trick question because it does not define whether you think they ran illegal TC or just something that emulates TC while staying completely legal. As a consequence results will be meaningless.
Unless of course that was your intention in the first place.

[FoxHound]

The sommers article does have something in it that stands out to me:

No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle torque demand by the driver.

Is engine mapping not a "system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power.........compensating excessive torque demand by the driver"?
With a complex map, you will be getting some form of traction control.

[H2H]

KERS obviously has a considerable impact on the behaviour of the car under charging/braking. It is a variable teams have to play with and it allows to modulate the torque output coming out of the engine. I saw it mentioned quite a while ago and at least some teams seem to use it to get away with more exhaust gas for the aero benefit as kinetic energy of the engine gets skimmed of by the recovery system and is transformed electric energy. So KERS has certainly an influence on the effectivness of the EBD, how much is impossible to say from my chair.

It is certainly amusing to hear the green qualities of KERS and then you have teams use it to burn additional fuel for aero gains.

In any case I watched some footage of Singapore from the fans point of view and I could not find any of Webber running in clean air which is a shame as the settings tend to vary greatly depending on the task the driver is asked to do...

[FoxHound]

I'm running a new poll on the front page to gather the opinions: Do you think that Red Bull had been using illegal means to obtain performance gain?

This poll has a trick question because it does not define whether you think they ran illegal TC or just something that emulates TC while staying completely legal. As a consequence results will be meaningless.
Unless of course that was your intention in the first place.

That wasn't Kiril, it was ADMIN as in Tomba who conducted the poll.

[turbof1]

Yeah, the question at the front page is a complete different one then asked here. And for the record, I would answer them differently. Somers made an excellent mention of using KERS harvesting to have some TC-esque features, which is legal, and thus would answer the question here with "no", but on the front page with "yes".

Maybe the poll question at the frontpage should be a bit more informative. Most people would consider "Traction Control-like modules" as illegal, but having a wider view on it, there are ways to implement such modules legally.

[Kiril Varbanov]

I'm running a new poll on the front page to gather the opinions: Do you think that Red Bull had been using illegal means to obtain performance gain?

This poll has a trick question because it does not define whether you think they ran illegal TC or just something that emulates TC while staying completely legal. As a consequence results will be meaningless.
Unless of course that was your intention in the first place.

Of course not, it's just you can't define legal and traction-control-like device in one question and get answer with Yes and No. Whether it is legal? I did not see any of the rivals filling protests. I can't tell I'm smarter or better engineer than those among F1 teams. They are not deaf.
This is not even close to my personal position regarding Red Bull as a team and it is not a defense for them. It's just when it comes to accusing, one is innocent until proven guilty. Again, I don't see any movement on the engineering front in F1.

I hope that clarifies further the poll and I'm really interested in everybody's opinion.

P.S. To answer the added question from FoxHound - I do have site editing rights here on F1Technical and I'm trying to help as much as I can. I ran the poll - it appears to be a sensitive matter, so I thought it deserves its own poll.
Due to a popular demand, I have added clarifications. Let me know.

[turbof1]

The thing is, all the engineers from the other teams probably have as much as hard time as we to figure out what Red Bull is exactly doing. Even if they suspected Red Bull from running an illegal car, they have nothing to go on; there's nothing visible on the car that says it is against the rules. Suspecting illegality but being in the dark what exactly, means it's useless to make a complaint or lodge protest. The best they can do is asking clarification on things they suspect.

edit: that's a very good adjustment to the poll, Kiril. Cheers!

[aancora]

Hi guys! Vettel's sound! -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DwXOPN7ZIM Webber's sound is "normal" ... why?

[SectorOne]

That´s very odd i have to say. Sounds almost like a broken exhaust.

[FoxHound]

That´s very odd i have to say. Sounds almost like a broken exhaust.

It's different, but then we need to compare individual cars going through the corner without being drowned out by the rest.
Webber's car does sound less deep through the corner, but we can't compare as his car is being drowned out by the others around him.

Certainly appears there is some mileage to this.

@Kiril + Juzh
My apologies I did not know you had the editing rights.

[tim|away]

Hi guys! Vettel's sound! -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DwXOPN7ZIM Webber's sound is "normal" ... why?

For comparison, 2011 blown diffusors.

[Juzh]

Hi guys! Vettel's sound! -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DwXOPN7ZIM Webber's sound is "normal" ... why?

For comparison, 2011 blown diffusors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNyPTRWHCJ8

Much better video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmGgvHflXgc[/youtube]

What you're hearing on vettel's car is simply cylinder cutting. It's been around since the start of 2013.

[McMrocks]

my 2 cents: It sounds strange off trotthle but when he hits the accelerator pedal it sounds fine. (In the Singapore vid)

[SectorOne]

An interesting article about the Benetton and FIA´s investigation,

http://grandprix247.com/2013/09/30/flas ... formula-1/