Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

[Jolle]

Verstappen reminds me of Marc Marquez!

[Fulcrum]

An alternative viewpoint expressed within the same logical framework.

A - was the overtake conducted in a fair manner? No, refer to point C.
B - why did he leave the track? To gain an advantage.
C - was an advantage gained by leaving the track? if yes, how much of an advantage was gained? Yes, 3 points and the prestige of a podium.
D - was the move potentially dangerous? By your own logic, yes; it was a marginal overtaking situation that relied on the - at least - partial compliance of another driver.

That would be very selective reasoning though. The breach of the incident is the fact that Max completely left the track. Why did he leave the track? Because he wanted to gain an advantage and conduct the overtake off the track? Or because he was reacting to Kimi moving right and trying to steer away from a potential collision at 250kmh?

The more relevant question in determining if there was a need for stewards to step in, is to ask if it was necessary for Max to go off the track to complete the overtake.

Judging Max's speed, his trajectory (not to mention fresher tires) and how much space was there on the inside when he went for it, I'd say no it wasn't. If Kimi wouldn't have jinxed right, Max could have simply stayed there and would have held the inside line and completed the pass without any doubt over its legitimacy.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that Kimi "intimated" Max on purpose. He simply wanted to move towards the apex and then realized that Max was there. That however was the reason why Max ended up off the track, not because Max needed to in order to complete the pass.

So now your argument is Max shouldn't have been penalised because he could have completed the move legally, and the fact that he didn't should not be held against him? That doesn't seem like very sound reasoning to me.

Max completed the move off track because he felt that he needed to. Reactive movement or premeditated - that's his mistake.

I think the real issue here is who performed the overtake, under what circumstances the overtake was performed, and who adjudged the breach of regulations.

In each case there are significant biases at play:

- Max Verstappen is the current darling of the sport (favouritism).
- The pass happened a few corners before the end of the race - highly exciting, making judgements highly emotive.
- Charlie Whiting made the call (or so I believe); people think he is incompetent (with justification in some cases).

As an audience we are more likely to excuse a grey incident in Max's favour. We are more likely to justify the move considering the circumstances (logic - he deserved a podium for that drive, therefore excuse the illegal overtake that gets him on the podium). We are more likely to criticise the penalty on the basis that Charlie made the ruling.

Remove the driver from the race situation and the penalty adjudicator. Would you reach the same conclusion?

[marvin78]

That's the problem why nearly every incident in F1 can't be discussed properly. It always ends in "my toy is better than yours so I am right". Sometimes this is salted with some made up semi-facts and called "proven". It's boring.

[Phil]

@Fulcrum,

Yes I would. My arguments are not based on who was driving. For the record, I am not particularly fond of Max. But obviously, Max is a very polarizing character. There are people that have a dislike for him and some that are on the opposite side. In case you are wondering, being a Dan supporter, I'm more in the former group (personal bias), though that doesn't stop me from appreciating the guy for what he is.

What you are saying ("Reactive movement or premeditated - that's his mistake") is that it is irrelevant if Kimi made that conscious move to the right that influenced Max to go off track. I say it's not irrelevant, because had that not happened, Max could have easily stayed on that line and complete the overtake on track. One could say, Kimi "intimidated" Max into going off-line. Would that be allowed according to your logic? Intimidating a driver to leave the track to protect your position?

[notsofast]

Intimidating a driver to leave the track to protect your position?

Drivers are permitted one defensive move. If that move intimidates you, so be it. (Well, I suppose there might be a rule against things like brake-checking. Not sure.)

Most of us here seem to be in one of two camps:

• Penalize a driver for going off-track when an advantage is gained
• Always penalize a driver for going off-track

Either way, Verstappen gets the penalty.

[Phil]

Drivers are permitted one defensive move. If that move intimidates you, so be it.

The one move is permitted as long as you are not crowding another car off the track - see the rules about leaving a cars width of space when a car is sufficiently along side.

Squeezing is not permitted. Or the move Schumacher did on Barricello when he nearly squeezed him into a wall at Hungary 2010. There are various examples that show quite clearly when the 1-defensive-move applies.

The 1-defensive-move was also introduced to the best of my knowledge to prevent drivers weaving around blocking another driver coming from behind. You either cover the inside, or the outside, but not both.

[CBeck113]

The penalty was fair as he made a clear breach of the rules.

what was not fair was that nobody else was given a penalty despite doing exactly the same. Raikkonen from all cases also gained an advantage and went off the track with all 4's.

http://media.dumpert.nl/foto/bcc16286_50.jpg.jpg

Yet Ferrari Instant Assist did nothing.
And as Max said, and Christian Horner didn't want to expose, the FIA steward is biased towards Max. He did the same in Mexico last year and then there was that issue of Japan with influencing Mercedes ' Paddy Lowe to make a move whilst Toto was already in the air. Which was embarassing and assumed that the steward would then be ousted and taken from his position. Also, Salo stated it was Charlie's decision so Jos, rightfully so, demanded he steps down - because it's not the first time this nonsense happens.
FIA is getting completely covered in controversy and inconsistency under Todt, but Charlie Whiting is a real disease for the sport.

Had the FIA been consistant and handed out penalties to other drivers, sure. But that never was the case, ONLY with Max in the LAST MINUTE, bending to Ferrari's crysong.

One more time...drifting wide in Corners is discussed in the drivers' Meetings, and must have been allowed or almost all Drivers would have been penalizied. Max didn't drift out, he cut the Corner, which shortened the distance through the Corner, which is an obvious Advantage = Penalty. had he kept even a milimeter of tread on the inside of the line (he did have room to do so, but I understand him being afraid that Kimi wouldn't have left him enough, that is the risk he took) then he wouldn't have been penalized.

[Sieper]

I am a big fan of Verstappen (for sure my perception is colored) although I of course can admit that yes he did cut the corner. I would even go as far to say that yes Kimi did squeeze him off but he gladly made the evasize move (cutting the corner) to his benefit. So there is that.

But indeed, I do believe Phil is usually more in the not per se pro Max camp and he feels the penalty was not mandatorily by default. As do several big names, even going as far as expressing that on live telly (sometimes whilst using profane language, and I know Webber is also more a Ric fan then a Max fan). That does say something as well. On one hand the penalty is clear cut on the other it is not so much.

[turbof1]

Just glancing through the topic. Most recurring argument is: penalty was fair, but should have counted for everybody else. And I agree with that.

For the record, going wide across the track limits when exiting a corner does give you an advantage too as you are able to carry a lot more speed out of the corner. Vettel was infact punished for this during the 2012 German GP!

Ultimately, the issue is that Verstappen was actually able to cut the corner, without the track punishing him. Put in some gravel, some astroturf in there. If he then made that move, he would have either lost the car (and more than likely collected Raikkonen as well), or had to lift off.

[turbof1]

For the record:


(he did not overtake him in the end, but it speaks volumes how drivers view corner cutting, like it was smearing butter on bread.)

[iotar__]

he gained an advantage by cutting the corner too much. end of story.

- More importantly cutting the corner was the only way to overtake. It wasn't a part of the move but 100% of it. "Gained advantage" can be selective or ignored (see Hamilton Mexico '16)

- All this toy throwing by RB is ridiculous. Verstappen should learn how to drive wheel to wheel instead of radio shouting and relying on getting away with murder. He gets one correct penalty out of ten and childish behavior follows.

- At least he didn't drive into Raikkonen like he did in Singapore or with Massa (Ita) and Ricciardo (Hun). Progress.

[sosic2121]

Just on the overtake with bottas. Yes he pushed bottas wide however bottas lost control defending and locked up his left front. So you could not definitely say that it was vastapens fault.

Bottas should have brakes sooner and softer to not lock up this would have allowed max to go past safely

Just rubbish!
Max left the track there. What was Bottas going to do?!
Moves like that are killing racing, no matter who done it!

No he stayed on the track all 4 wheels where not off the circuit. Re watch the overtake

So he was "only" 190cm off, and still 10cm in. where should then Bottas go?

[George-Jung]

Quick question:

Senna has been regarded as one of the greats...

What would Senna say?

Last but not least;

Youtube

Why is it ok to go off track in order to position yourself to re-overtake?

[Manoah2u]

"If you don't go for a gap there is, you are not racing".

Verstappen saw a gap and went for it. That's racing.

Hill @ Sky made a fair argument, the runoff areas then are the problem. Make the curb higher, problem solved.

[strad]

Nobody else overtook another car by going off track, Max was the only one who did it and came ahead of Kimi and was penalised for it.

Wrong wrong wrong.. you need to re-watch the race. It happened over and over at the same corner.