BMW & Williams under investigation!

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
morsus
morsus
0
Joined: 20 Oct 2007, 16:29

Post

I think most comments here are really partial and few can take this from a neutral point of view. Which is natural because it's the WDC in question.

As for the problem itself, i don't know the real competitive advantage that fuel temperature could really bring to bmw's and williams, but who knows the real outcome of the race would be if they were within regularity?

Anyway, as for my 5 cents on the matter, let the champions enjoy their tittle, like someone said, the one with most points deserves it.

2008 SEASON
143 days 14 hours :(

timbo
timbo
113
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Post

axle wrote:Let s be honest here...

No one at Ferrari would hesitate to win the championship via the courts....so why should anyone else??

It would be harsh on Kimi, Rosberg...but rules are rules...

It looks like the FIA can't prove or disprove either way atm, but McLaren are certainly well within their rights to appeal as no one this season has hesitated to stick the knife in their back.
Now, let's appeal at Hamilton for using extra set of tyres? I think McLaren team is lucky that their pilots wasn't excluded from championship after spy-scandal.
My point is that once again the rules were not sorted out properly. It must FIA who take the blame for it, not the drivers.

User avatar
johny
0
Joined: 07 Apr 2005, 09:06
Location: Spain

Post

that's not the point here, they find something wrong in the cars so why can't mclaren appeal? They won't win it but it's better blaming the "ilegal" cars that their own mistake

dumrick
dumrick
0
Joined: 19 Jan 2004, 13:36
Location: Portugal

Post

timbo wrote:
dumrick wrote: You are right about the "trickyness" of this, but this rule doesn't only and foremost apply to the fuel in the external tanks, but rather to it in the car, and that's probably exactly why there's a so huge tolerance as 10ºC.
My guess: every team conditions the temperature of the fuel in the rig to be just inside the tolerance.
I doubt that.
How can they take samples of fuel e.g. after first pit-stop from the internal tank? They probably could set-up a sensor in a fuel-tank, but in the press release it was quoted that FIA measured temperature of 'samples'.
On the other hand I think that usage of devices needed to maintain constant low temperature within a fuel tank would be problematic given the excessive amount of heat the engine produces (remember that solid CO2 cans used to pre condition cooling system before the race). There were once said that temperature at cockpit is about 50 celsius even at cooler track conditions.

PS read the end of an article
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/19
I don't understand what you doubt. We seem to agree in all points. The fact that a rule exists for fuel temperature doesn't mean that there are sensoring means for it in all conditions. Also, it's not pratical or efficient to put a temperature control device in the car fuel tank. So, the teams are left with lowering the fuel temperature in the rig.

ss.vamsikrishna
ss.vamsikrishna
0
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 14:02
Location: USA

Post

Is Mclaren going to appeal to international court or whatever????so can they still take back kimi's title ....please let me know

User avatar
Militia Est Vita
0
Joined: 11 Jun 2007, 15:26
Location: Mexico

Post

IMHO the FIA is just going to play it safe and they will fine BMW and Williams with some thousands of euros and that's it.

I love McLaren but it will be ridiculous if they ask for BMW and Williams disqualification for the fuel matter when they were forgiven to be expelled from the championship by the spy saga.

timbo
timbo
113
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Post

2dumrick
Well... In my case it is probably dyslexia :)

What I meant to say is that FIA probably has no way of controlling fuel temperature within internal tank.

2Militia Est Vita

I agree. In that case at least some logic in FIA actions remains.

User avatar
Tom
0
Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

Post

I think its a shame Ron has decided to appeal, he doesn't want to win the championship this way, he's just annoyed that the season has ended the way he feel was right.

I have to agree with Militia Est Vita, a fine would fit in with the FIA 2007 theme and not have a major effect on the championship either. Surely its not too much to expect for them to make a correct decision?
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

User avatar
checkered
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Post

The stewards and technical delegates seem

to recognise that the rules about fuel temperatures, as they stand, are unenforceable in any meaningful scale. Yet they deemed it necessary to go about administering tests according to those rules rather than change them first and even ventured to make statements about temperature fluctuations that were well within the margin of error that the wording of the rules allows? "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", eh?

The championship could come down to people contesting each other with issues that are wholly immaterial with regard to any causes and effects as far as existing rules or physical realities are concerned. Perhaps the future of F1 will consist of 12 teams of philosophers (Vodafone Existentialists, ING Humanists, Marlboro Idealists, Panasonic Logical Positivists, Red Bull Materialists, AT&T Nihilists, Etihad Aldar Pragmatists etc.?) convening to debate the results, dispensing with such minor details as actually driving racecars around circuits. Meanwhile sponsors would be required to burn an amount of fuel equal to the CO2 load a physical race would inflict on the atmosphere, all direct and indirect energy usage included - perhaps minus the hot air generated by the heated discussions. The philosophers would've demanded that, agreeing that the universal essence of the sport is its continued contribution to the greenhouse effect as a reflection of the human condition.

I suggest that part of McLaren's "spygate" fine is used by the FIA to hire an external team that will review and simplify the rules, enforcement and processes to such a degree that these thoroughly unnecessary episodes can better be avoided. They've got 140 days or so to achieve this.

Stewards: temperature issues too unclear - link, Autosport

timbo
timbo
113
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Post

checkered wrote: I suggest that part of McLaren's "spygate" fine is used by the FIA to hire an external team that will review and simplify the rules, enforcement and processes to such a degree that these thoroughly unnecessary episodes can better be avoided. They've got 140 days or so to achieve this.

Stewards: temperature issues too unclear - link, Autosport
Yes! My thoughts exactly.

timbo
timbo
113
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Post

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63593

Blah, blah, bleeee

Sure, because McLaren have no intention of stealing the title from Raikonnen they were the only team who made such appeal.
McLaren official statements this year are ridiculous.

User avatar
Sawtooth-spike
0
Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 15:33
Location: Cambridge

Post

As i Said Every other team on the grid would do the same with this situation.

Ferrari Would and have in the Past so why bag Ron for doing something everybody would do
I believe in the chain of command, Its the chain I use to beat you till you do what i want!!!

timbo
timbo
113
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Post

Sawtooth-spike wrote:As i Said Every other team on the grid would do the same with this situation.

Ferrari Would and have in the Past so why bag Ron for doing something everybody would do
OK. McLaren is the only team right now who issued such an appeal. Not Toyota or Red Bull who's drivers would receive points in case of appeal succeded. So McLaren's claim that this appeal has nothing to do with Ferrari's driver winning the championship is bullshit.

User avatar
Sawtooth-spike
0
Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 15:33
Location: Cambridge

Post

timbo wrote:So McLaren's claim that this appeal has nothing to do with Ferrari's driver winning the championship is bullshit.
Now that i totaly Agree with!
I believe in the chain of command, Its the chain I use to beat you till you do what i want!!!

User avatar
f1.redbaron
0
Joined: 31 Jul 2005, 23:29

Post

I swear, Alonso has hit the new low. Now, he's saying that he hopes to see Kimi retain his WDC.

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/10/ ... his-title/

You know what...I'm glad Kimi won it. I thought that he deserved to win in '05, so in a way this is justice. Never in a million years would I think that Raikkonen would win the WDC this year (going into Brazil, of course), but he surprised me...and I believe that he deserves it.

But, I there is a part of me that wants to see Hamilton get WDC. This would set Alonso off. The only reason why Alonso wants to see Kimi keep his WDC is so that he doesn't get embarrassed for being beaten by a rookie. That has got to be one of the most pathetic things he's done.

Alonso, I hope you never sign to drive for Toyota, because the day you do is the day they will lose me as a fan, you miserable, pathetic, cry-baby!

(no, I still don't feel OK :D )