Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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bjpower
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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which brings us back to kers
to be seen to be doing something but in the end achieving nothing at great cost.
i really dont think fearri or merc compete in car sales using mpg.
and if the rules are changed to bring back the manufactures so they can have a green image
what about the private teams, we saw them die a death when all the manufactures came in.
teams left because of cost
adding a bunch of techs that will cost millions and do nothing for the sport seems pointless.

subaru left rallying, why have rally not introduced a hybrid class?
why has no one asked them to.

the true test. ask any manufacturer, do you want to come second with a car that does 100mpg or first with a car that does .1mpg.
we all know the answer

meves
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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bjpower wrote: anyway
why does F1 need to be real world relevant?
It's quite simple, lets see the advantage for the F1 teams. The most successful and longstanding (current) F1 teams are Ferrari, Mclaren and Williams. All of these teams sustain their business through road car products, engineering, solutions, and consulting. All of them use direct transfer from their participation in motorsports of which F1 is one and pass those innovations and technolgies directly into road cars. This gives the teams direct revenue (outside of sponsorship) for the F1 team making it "affordable".

From the public point of view, it's what they aspire to. Given the choice would you like to be seen in a car that has technology from the GP3 championship winning car in it or would you like to be seen in the car that is derived from the F1 championship winning car in it? Basically it sells cars, but the issue is you have to be successful, which is why too many manufacturers spoil the broth!

Which is why from both ends of the scale it has to be real world relevant, without the relevance the teams don't have the showcase technology to sell and consult on and the punters don't see the link and don't go gooey eyed over carbon fibre tubs, diffusers and adaptive suspension....

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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bjpower wrote:which brings us back to kers
to be seen to be doing something but in the end achieving nothing at great cost.
i really dont think fearri or merc compete in car sales using mpg.
Montezemolo has just confirmed that he wants KERS back in 2012 as part of an integrated package with a new engine. With the reduced number of two manufacturer teams he obviously sees an advantage now in a new engine formula. All the sudden cost of rule change is not important any more. It shows that the opposition to KERS had nothing to do with the thing by itself and all to do with the tactical situation. Anything is only good for Ferrari if Ferrari is likely to profit from it.

Naturally Ferrari or Merc clients can afford a bit more fuel but if the other attributes are comparable fuel efficiency becomes a competitive advantage again. If I can have a prestigious and desirable SUV or sports car or sedan and all other things equal I will naturally buy the one with the better milage. We have already seen this with the objectives of the MP4-12C.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Raptor22
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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F1 needs a drastic overhaul.

firstly, he aerodynamics should be standardised i.e. use std front and rear wings.

Now here where we should get a bit radical.

Scrap the carbonfibre monocoque tub. Oh I can see them gathering out side with pitchforks and tar torches already. The Carbon fibre tub is done. It's been around for over 20 yrs and it has not really advanced much since John Barnard designed a mono moulded tub for the Benetton B191. Since then its just been refine refine refine.

What f1 needs is pioneering chassis construction that is transferable to road cars. Steel Space frames/ Aluminium space frames, aluminium/al honeycomb mnocoque chassis that is wider than the current crop of f1 needles. Perhaps something like Audi's space frame technology applied and devloped in f1.
Carbon fibre does have lovely properties but unless it is discouraged, metallurgists are not going to invent strong mono crystal aluminium fibres or fivre steels for use in composite construction of chassis.

The Global racing Engine is another brilliant idea that should be homologated sooner rather than later.

Then f1 tyre compounds should be available for road use and must last more than 20,000km under normal road use. This makes it interesting for tyre manufacturers again.

Any technology used on an F1 car should be in series production on a passenger car within 12 months of first being used on the F1 car.

so you invent a new way to construct a chassis, then build at least 5000 road cars using that technology.

mx_tifoso
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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I've agreed with some previous posts of yours before Raptor but this last one is absurd, no offense.

Chassis that relate and transfer to road cars?

Tyres that last 20,000km?

That's what GT racing is for if that concept should even be applied anywhere. The idea of such rules being applied in F1 is outrageous and unthinkable. Formula One is a prototype based racing series that shouldn't directly correlate to road going cars, much less be on equal footing.

The homologation process should not be a part of Formula One IMO.
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dumrick
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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I detect a fundamental contradiction in Richards' statement.
David Richards wrote:"I think it's very appropriate that Jean Todt has taken over the reins of F1 just at this turning point (...) where we talk about relevance of motorsport technology and yet, today, I can't think of anything less relevant than aerodynamics to the general automotive industry.
Motorsport technology and F1 technology aren't one and the same thing. Sure, the latter includes the former, but it never was the role of F1, as one of the various motorsport disciplines, to be the one to relate more closely to roadcar technology, except in a small niche market of high performance machinery, many times, sold race-ready. There's where came from firms like Ferrari and Lotus, going from mere racecar constructors that later started building cars, primarely meant for racing purposes, but street-legal for the GT racing market. But even diversifying for more street-oriented machinery, a Ferrari or a Lotus isn't yet (unfortunately, of course), the kind of car that is representative of what everybody drives (except maybe in some areas of L.A....).

Where those came from:
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Real car constructors did motorsport also, and their racing technology was relevant for real road cars.

Image

I believe that this confusion between "F1" and "Motorsport" originated after Mr. Ecclestone got greedy and, with the help of the World Federation (wait, I'm not talking about Mr. Mosley, but rather about M. Balestre, head of the FISA on the 80's and held by his cojones by Mr. Ecclestone since the FIA... sorry FISA/ FOTA... ups, FOCA wars. That greediness made F1 dry all other motorsport forms in order to establish itself as the only top-level series and, consequently, the biggest target of spending by sponsors. All major competing championships collapsed under, sometimes, incredibly stupid rule-making, like in the case of Group C, others only by the indifference of the sporting federation (Group A, after the absence of effective ruling to avoid a one-make dominance - what DTM avoided in the late 80's, running the exact same cars used in FISA racing, establishing it as a decades-long case of success).

That strategy has finally bit the foot of its creators, making F1 too expensive for racecar constructors, rich playboys and little-workshop enthusiasts alike, that were the pillars of the discipline for ages. Enter the big car manufacturers, void of most of their traditional forms of racing and that spent happily enough for Mr. Ecclestone's liking. It took little time, though, for him to realize that their vows weren't really "for better or for worse" and that their fidelity to the marriage was questionable.

It's them who have imposed the road-relevance tag on F1, something that it never was designed to be and never needed to be, also. That tag was needed, as they've probably explained to Mr. Ecclestone, to sell their boards the idea that their investment wasn't all waste. F1 is a driver-series, the home of the brave, rare few that succeed in a kind of beast that always has had little to do with what everybody drives to work, but excites the public on all other levels. It has always been more the modern equivalent of arena shows like the Roman chariot races, who thrilled the same people in the same way as gladiator fighting. Cigar-tube-like vehicles, later with sidepods and wings, with exposed wheels and double-wishbone suspension? It was far different from what the common citizen drove and he couldn't care less. If he wanted to see his Alfa racing, he would go to see a Touring Car race.

Around the same time big car manufacturers were starting to infest F1, little organisations started having considerable success with some motorsport disciplines raced under "private" (non-FIA) rules that proved that there was an audience eager to see something else that just formulas racing - BTCC, BPR Global GT Series; DTM... The FIA couldn't ignore this success and ended absorbing many of these series (the S2000 regulations, the rebirth of the WTCC, FIA-GT World Championship). Others succeeded on their own (the ACO Le Mans Series, Grand-Am...). But, finally, we have again strong championships that serve the same purposes and niches that the championships that Mr. Ecclestone destroyed for the glory of F1.

If I'm surprised that BMW left F1 and decided to invest in ACO GT2 racing and WTCC? Well... no, that's what they've always raced anyway:
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I'm still waiting for Toyota's plans, but, if they have any racing programs, they can't be that different from what they've raced in the 60's, 70's or 80's.

Fortunately, we now have again some series that are more road-relevant than F1. Hopefully, F1 will no longer need to be road-relevant and can start being a bit more what it's always been. Look, some millionaires owning F1 teams? Maybe it has already started to be...

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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I actually don't buy this story. To me it is much simpler. F1 has always been about cars that negotiate a road course in the fastest possible way. Initially this was achieved by reducing vehicles to the lowest possible weight. Starting in the seventies and eighties aerospace technologies like generating aerodynamic forces and composite design have added elements that are particular to high performance racing cars. So we have a breed of highly specialized vehicles long before the last manufacturer era.

When Mercedes arrived again in F1 in the mid nineties the manufacturer era started with their rivalship with Ferrari. The battlefields were engines, aero and tyres initially. But the whole period is characterised by escalating budgets and ever changing aerodynamic rules. At the end of the GPMA war in 2006 fuel efficiency and road relevance were added to the FIA objectives.

It is obvious that highest performance conflicts with road relevance. Road cars don't need downforce which is essential to F1 performance. Nevertheless there are opportunities where F1 can use the same propulsion developments that work in road cars and reduce aero development to minimize the drag of a homologated configuration. Competitive advantages would be derived from best propulsion technology and packaging the chassis to accomodate it. For this strategy to work one obviously needs more interested manufacturers like VW and Aston Martin who have signaled that they are interested if the competition can be fought on a suitable budget. I'm sure on such a premise BMW would also like to play as an engine manufacturer.

If F1 comes to their senses and implements the changes now we could look at a relatively broad field of competing manufacturers in three years time. You would have Ferrari, Merc, VW, Renault, Aston and Cosworth. It would be likely that there would also be two or three more manufacturers in that group again. This is what I think Dave Richards was talking about.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

bjpower
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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do manufactures make F1 better?
I think they take from the sport.
you cant really follow a manufacturer, they are just a company they dont really stand for anything. they have no personality etc
now we see people follow the drivers more.
now that we have some independent teams back we are seeing fun bets (virgin and lotus) and i bet next season will be interesting. hopefully this trend will continue.
I think manufactures should only be allowed to supply engines.
f1 needs a bit of fun back in it, it needs some personality.

F1 does not need to be the sacrificed for the green agenda.

nothing other than concepts will filter down to the road cars.
which none of these technologies will bring as the concept is already there.
no matter what rules you make to the chassis for example. that chassis will never make it to a road car.
what was the last idea that made it to production cars from F1 - buttons on the steering wheel maybe.

not one extra mpg has come out of production hybrids due to the kers in F1.

at what point did f1 stop being a sport?

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Pandamasque
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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bjpower wrote:you cant really follow a manufacturer, they are just a company they dont really stand for anything. they have no personality etc
In which way Red Bull energy drink company has more personality than Ferrari car manufacturer?

PS: 'fun bets' is just a less conservative PR strategy. I think Red Bull were the first of the new teams to come up with such things.

Raptor22
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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:D
Like I said, you will be gathering with pitch forks and tar torches and beying for a lynching :lol:

F1 needs to get radical.
F1 needs to get relevant.

all of motor racing is gladatorial in nature and that will not be lost while there is competition and high stakes.

However the chariot needs to be more easily recognised by the man in the street as a vehicles that has some sort of relevance to the chariot he commutes in every day.

Dakar is more relevant to the man in the street than f1. Some of my chums recognise the Mitsubishi brand more readily due to their Dakar exploits.
A few mates who have Toureq's have suddenly a sense of pride that their SUV is better than a Pajero..
I've yet to meet a Mercede's driver who gives a hoot that theres a Merc engine in the back of a McLaren, or a Renault owner who actually knows that Renault has a F1 team.
And its this that Dave Richards is talking about. We have become entrenched in an irrelevant formula for the pinnacle of motorsport.

Technologies developed in the 50's and 60's found its way onto production road cars not 10 yrs later, i.e. monocoque chassis, wishbone suspension, light weight 4x4, the concept of undertray air flow for high speed aerodynamic stability, super compact cooling systems, long life coolants, high VI lubricants, low SAPS lubricants, fast burning high octane fuels (the two are not related), engine control units, multi point fuel injection, variable length inlet tracts, mutli valve technology
All of these were borne out of f1.

Modern F1 has contributed nothing to passenger cars.

Passenger cars are moving toward direct injection petrol, controlled auto Ignition (CAI), double clutch gearboxes (VAG's DSG).

The F1 engineer used to shape technologoes that were found on passengers cars a few years later.
Lately the f1 engineer contributes nothing.

And thats a problem because manufacturers won't want to get involved unless it translates in higher vehicle sales

xpensive
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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I am cynical enough to believe that remaining manufacturer- and sponsor-xecutives would take off like paychecks if there wasn't for the hospitality suites, big-boob pit-babes and general razmatazz and party around a GP weekend.

I agree with raptor that most Mercedes buyers are probably unaware that the company is involved in F1 and if they were, they wouldn't give a ---. Just like I would never decide on which bank to place my hard-earned cash by what team was winning, let alone ever be doing business with a Malaysian oil-company.

Booze is a different matter though, I might unconciously be coersed to get shitfaced on Johnnie every other weekend?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

bjpower
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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Raptor22 wrote::D
Like I said, you will be gathering with pitch forks and tar torches and beying for a lynching :lol:

F1 needs to get radical.
F1 needs to get relevant.

I will leave the pitch fork down for a sec :)
please list all real world "relevant" sports that you know of

Slife
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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Ummm... aren't Touring cars, and that racing series the ones that are most relevant to road cars ?

dumrick
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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Raptor, you seem the kind of guy who would try to sell a Porsche for its ride confort and then scratch the head asking why your costumer went to a Bentley dealership instead.

Allow me to repeat myself a little:

- Formula One isn't the alpha and omega of motorsports;

- The road-relevance of Formula One is just the pitch that was thrown at the boards of directors of the big manufacturing companies to convince them to put money on it;

- The need for F1 to try to fulfill its own role and the roles of all other forms of motorsport arouse when all other forms motorsport were choked to death for the glory and single domination of Formula One.

Formula One has lead to roadcar-relevant developments in powertrain technologies alone. Concerning chassis technologies:
Raptor22 wrote:Technologies developed in the 50's and 60's found its way onto production road cars not 10 yrs later, i.e. monocoque chassis
I give you a mass production monocoque. Dated 1934...:

Image
Raptor22 wrote:wishbone suspension
If your car has double wishbone suspension, congratulations. Mine and more than 90% of street cars don't.
Raptor22 wrote:he concept of undertray air flow for high speed aerodynamic stability
...same as above... people's VW Golfs benefit nothing from it.


What you seem to think is that this
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has to relate more to this
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than this
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Formula One must realize that it can't check all the boxes in motorsports.

Despite Mr. Ecclestone efforts, there are various motorsport racing series that answer different needs. Mr. Richards should know that: Prodrive worked in road-relevant disciplines like rallying and GT racing.

Scotracer
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Re: Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

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Single-seaters are never going to be directly relevant to the road due to their mass, construction, open wheels and the types of suspension that brings with it.

Were Grand Prix cars relevant in the 50s? 60s? 70s?
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