2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Farsari]

It was a quote a week or two ago, I forgot where I read it.

So far the only thing I’ve read from Tanabe or Honda is that they aim to close the gap to Mercedes, which is pretty much standard media talk at this point of the season. I think people express their hopes a bit too much through these rumors. Not saying the gap isn’t going to be closed though. We’ll just have to wait and see.

[godlameroso]

Mercedes would have to take a massive step for it not to close.

[Zynerji]

Mercedes would have to take a massive step for it not to close.

With all the noise Toto made about how hard the development push was from 2019->2020, there simply may not have been much more to find for 2021 at Merc.

[Farsari]

Mercedes would have to take a massive step for it not to close.

With all the noise Toto made about how hard the development push was from 2019->2020, there simply may not have been much more to find for 2021 at Merc.

Well you're talking about the most dominant team for the past 8 years, and that are able to switch their full focus to the development of the new car much earlier than other teams. They're not standing still so I wouldn't just say that Red Bull can close that gap all of a sudden, let alone exceed it.

[Wouter]

It was a quote a week or two ago, I forgot where I read it.

So far the only thing I’ve read from Tanabe or Honda is that they aim to close the gap to Mercedes, which is pretty much standard media talk at this point of the season. I think people express their hopes a bit too much through these rumors. Not saying the gap isn’t going to be closed though. We’ll just have to wait and see.

Exactly!

[Zynerji]

Mercedes would have to take a massive step for it not to close.

With all the noise Toto made about how hard the development push was from 2019->2020, there simply may not have been much more to find for 2021 at Merc.

Well you're talking about the most dominant team for the past 8 years, and that are able to switch their full focus to the development of the new car much earlier than other teams. They're not standing still so I wouldn't just say that Red Bull can close that gap all of a sudden, let alone exceed it.

I think about it differently.

We read all the time that teams make setup "breakthroughs". Even Merc had one after their private tyre test in the V8 days...

I feel that most cars that make it to the grid are a few setup tweaks away from up to 3/4 of a second faster laptimes. I know that sounds like a lot, but in a synergy system, a single fix up-stream can have exponential gains by the end.

We will see, of course, and not long from now. It always my hope that the top 10 in Q3 are all within .015s of each other...

[Farsari]

With all the noise Toto made about how hard the development push was from 2019->2020, there simply may not have been much more to find for 2021 at Merc.

Well you're talking about the most dominant team for the past 8 years, and that are able to switch their full focus to the development of the new car much earlier than other teams. They're not standing still so I wouldn't just say that Red Bull can close that gap all of a sudden, let alone exceed it.

I think about it differently.

We read all the time that teams make setup "breakthroughs". Even Merc had one after their private tyre test in the V8 days...

I feel that most cars that make it to the grid are a few setup tweaks away from up to 3/4 of a second faster laptimes. I know that sounds like a lot, but in a synergy system, a single fix up-stream can have exponential gains by the end.

We will see, of course, and not long from now. It always my hope that the top 10 in Q3 are all within .015s of each other...

That's of course also what I hope, and especially for Red Bull. I don't know, I think I'm just a bit too much of a realist. I always found it very irritating to hear the stories of Red Bull at the start of the season, boasting that this would definitely be their season, before realizing in the first race that Mercedes, who were confidently quiet up until that point, also made that progress. It's hard to break that momentum. I feel like you need two things: 1) Mercedes need a big hiccup in the new car and 2) Red Bull need some extraordinary new design or something. Otherwise the gap would remain more or less the same.

[Zynerji]

Well you're talking about the most dominant team for the past 8 years, and that are able to switch their full focus to the development of the new car much earlier than other teams. They're not standing still so I wouldn't just say that Red Bull can close that gap all of a sudden, let alone exceed it.

I think about it differently.

We read all the time that teams make setup "breakthroughs". Even Merc had one after their private tyre test in the V8 days...

I feel that most cars that make it to the grid are a few setup tweaks away from up to 3/4 of a second faster laptimes. I know that sounds like a lot, but in a synergy system, a single fix up-stream can have exponential gains by the end.

We will see, of course, and not long from now. It always my hope that the top 10 in Q3 are all within .015s of each other...

That's of course also what I hope, and especially for Red Bull. I don't know, I think I'm just a bit too much of a realist. I always found it very irritating to hear the stories of Red Bull at the start of the season, boasting that this would definitely be their season, before realizing in the first race that Mercedes, who were confidently quiet up until that point, also made that progress. It's hard to break that momentum. I feel like you need two things: 1) Mercedes need a big hiccup in the new car and 2) Red Bull need some extraordinary new design or something. Otherwise the gap would remain more or less the same.

It's extraction.

Each car has a theoretical "perfect" setup for each track. Each team only reaches a % of that perfect. So, your car doesn't have to win on the "perfect to perfect" comparison, your "% to perfect * perfect" just needs to be higher.

[godlameroso]

This year is different. There was some breakthrough for Red Bull, the RB16 was still a very fast car. Even with the chassis and engine gap it was at worst .5 seconds per lap slower than Mercedes, in Verstappen's hands.

At best when the car was working, like it did in Nurburgring, Mugello, Imola. It was every bit a match for Mercedes.

The aero philosophy is the same for once. 2019, new front wing regulations. 2020 first year with slim nose and cape concept.

2021 is just a continuation of the same concept. All the teams are subject to the same aero rules. This is the only thing that can catch out RBR.

They spent their tokens in the rear to mitigate the effects of the new rules.

From a chassis perspective there's a lot going on at RBR.

The progress and understanding gained from developing on track may have compensated somewhat for Mercedes having longer lead times but more reliance on virtual development.

Perhaps the teams bullishness comes from the fact they gained understanding in the real world vs only simulators.

And even with the engine gap, the chassis itself managed to be competitive. Imagine if the chassis performance is the same relative to Mercedes, and Honda simply closes the engine gap?

If that .5 gap becomes .3 or .2 because of the engine, then it becomes a development battle. Because a few aero tweaks can easily give you those .2 or track layout and conditions etc.

If Mercedes wants no.8, then they have to sacrifice a little on 2022.

[Farsari]

This year is different. There was some breakthrough for Red Bull, the RB16 was still a very fast car. Even with the chassis and engine gap it was at worst .5 seconds per lap slower than Mercedes, in Verstappen's hands.

At best when the car was working, like it did in Nurburgring, Mugello, Imola. It was every bit a match for Mercedes.

The aero philosophy is the same for once. 2019, new front wing regulations. 2020 first year with slim nose and cape concept.

2021 is just a continuation of the same concept. All the teams are subject to the same aero rules. This is the only thing that can catch out RBR.

They spent their tokens in the rear to mitigate the effects of the new rules.

From a chassis perspective there's a lot going on at RBR.

The progress and understanding gained from developing on track may have compensated somewhat for Mercedes having longer lead times but more reliance on virtual development.

Perhaps the teams bullishness comes from the fact they gained understanding in the real world vs only simulators.

And even with the engine gap, the chassis itself managed to be competitive. Imagine if the chassis performance is the same relative to Mercedes, and Honda simply closes the engine gap?

If that .5 gap becomes .3 or .2 because of the engine, then it becomes a development battle. Because a few aero tweaks can easily give you those .2 or track layout and conditions etc.

What do you mean by being a match with Mercedes. In Imola Max was faster than Bottas because Bottas had significant damage. Hamilton was 15 seconds away from Verstappen halfway of the race. Max didn't even come close. In Mugello Max didn't even get to the 4th corner, so you can't use this race as an example? Furthermore, the Mercedes pulled away 8 seconds in 13 laps from Albon after the SC restart...

I get what you are saying about the fact that there is a lot going on on the chassis, rear suspension, cape, nose, etc... Of course there's a lot going on, they're one of the biggest F1 teams, it's pure logic! But this all says nothing compared to other teams, who also 'have a lot going on'. I'm just saying that we're all just noobs discussing things of which we have no knowledge of. If you're not in F1 yourself, you know nothing basically. We can only wait and see.

[godlameroso]

This year is different. There was some breakthrough for Red Bull, the RB16 was still a very fast car. Even with the chassis and engine gap it was at worst .5 seconds per lap slower than Mercedes, in Verstappen's hands.

At best when the car was working, like it did in Nurburgring, Mugello, Imola. It was every bit a match for Mercedes.

The aero philosophy is the same for once. 2019, new front wing regulations. 2020 first year with slim nose and cape concept.

2021 is just a continuation of the same concept. All the teams are subject to the same aero rules. This is the only thing that can catch out RBR.

They spent their tokens in the rear to mitigate the effects of the new rules.

From a chassis perspective there's a lot going on at RBR.

The progress and understanding gained from developing on track may have compensated somewhat for Mercedes having longer lead times but more reliance on virtual development.

Perhaps the teams bullishness comes from the fact they gained understanding in the real world vs only simulators.

And even with the engine gap, the chassis itself managed to be competitive. Imagine if the chassis performance is the same relative to Mercedes, and Honda simply closes the engine gap?

If that .5 gap becomes .3 or .2 because of the engine, then it becomes a development battle. Because a few aero tweaks can easily give you those .2 or track layout and conditions etc.

What do you mean by being a match with Mercedes. In Imola Max was faster than Bottas because Bottas had significant damage. Hamilton was 15 seconds away from Verstappen halfway of the race. Max didn't even come close. In Mugello Max didn't even get to the 4th corner, so you can't use this race as an example? Furthermore, the Mercedes pulled away 8 seconds in 13 laps from Albon after the SC restart...

I get what you are saying about the fact that there is a lot going on on the chassis, rear suspension, cape, nose, etc... Of course there's a lot going on, they're one of the biggest F1 teams, it's pure logic! But this all says nothing compared to other teams, who also 'have a lot going on'. I'm just saying that we're all just noobs discussing things of which we have no knowledge of. If you're not in F1 yourself, you know nothing basically. We can only wait and see.

Look at the qualifying gap in Mugello, the race pace gap in Nurburgring. Verstappen's pace in Imola was very good, he himself said he botched up sector 3 and the quali gap could have been closer.

Verstappen started matching Hamilton once he cleared Bottas in Imola.

[Wouter]

Verstappen started matching Hamilton once he cleared Bottas in Imola.

Where do you see that? I can be wrong, but I don't see it.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

[Farsari]

This year is different. There was some breakthrough for Red Bull, the RB16 was still a very fast car. Even with the chassis and engine gap it was at worst .5 seconds per lap slower than Mercedes, in Verstappen's hands.

At best when the car was working, like it did in Nurburgring, Mugello, Imola. It was every bit a match for Mercedes.

The aero philosophy is the same for once. 2019, new front wing regulations. 2020 first year with slim nose and cape concept.

2021 is just a continuation of the same concept. All the teams are subject to the same aero rules. This is the only thing that can catch out RBR.

They spent their tokens in the rear to mitigate the effects of the new rules.

From a chassis perspective there's a lot going on at RBR.

The progress and understanding gained from developing on track may have compensated somewhat for Mercedes having longer lead times but more reliance on virtual development.

Perhaps the teams bullishness comes from the fact they gained understanding in the real world vs only simulators.

And even with the engine gap, the chassis itself managed to be competitive. Imagine if the chassis performance is the same relative to Mercedes, and Honda simply closes the engine gap?

If that .5 gap becomes .3 or .2 because of the engine, then it becomes a development battle. Because a few aero tweaks can easily give you those .2 or track layout and conditions etc.

What do you mean by being a match with Mercedes. In Imola Max was faster than Bottas because Bottas had significant damage. Hamilton was 15 seconds away from Verstappen halfway of the race. Max didn't even come close. In Mugello Max didn't even get to the 4th corner, so you can't use this race as an example? Furthermore, the Mercedes pulled away 8 seconds in 13 laps from Albon after the SC restart...

I get what you are saying about the fact that there is a lot going on on the chassis, rear suspension, cape, nose, etc... Of course there's a lot going on, they're one of the biggest F1 teams, it's pure logic! But this all says nothing compared to other teams, who also 'have a lot going on'. I'm just saying that we're all just noobs discussing things of which we have no knowledge of. If you're not in F1 yourself, you know nothing basically. We can only wait and see.

Look at the qualifying gap in Mugello, the race pace gap in Nurburgring. Verstappen's pace in Imola was very good, he himself said he botched up sector 3 and the quali gap could have been closer.

Verstappen started matching Hamilton once he cleared Bottas in Imola.

And do you also consider the fact that Hamilton is just managing the gap at that point? No need to go full out when there’s no need to. You can only make a statement like this if Max and Lewis are battling closely for position. Otherwise there’s just too much variables to consider in race pace.

[godlameroso]

Verstappen started matching Hamilton once he cleared Bottas in Imola.

Where do you see that? I can be wrong, but I don't see it.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

43 1:18.151[2] 1:18.528[1] -0.377 +13.007 15
44 1:17.637[2] 1:17.706[1] -0.069 +12.938 16
45 1:17.860[2] 1:17.963[1] -0.103 +12.835 17
46 1:18.193[2] 1:18.007[1] +0.186 +13.021 29
47 1:17.707[2] 1:17.853[1] -0.146 +12.875 18
48 1:17.924[2] 1:17.279[1] +0.645 +13.520 30
49 1:17.952[2] 1:17.725[1] +0.227 +13.747 31
50 1:17.932[2] 1:17.744[1] +0.188 +13.935 32

Verstappen on the left Hamilton on the right.

4 vs 4

Verstappen gained half a second, then Hamilton answered back by getting back the half second, then Verstappen crashed out.

Hamilton had the benefit of running in clean air, while Verstappen took more out of his tires getting past Bottas, and running in his wake. Given the circumstances his pace was excellent.

[NathanOlder]

Verstappen started matching Hamilton once he cleared Bottas in Imola.

Where do you see that? I can be wrong, but I don't see it.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

43 1:18.151[2] 1:18.528[1] -0.377 +13.007 15
44 1:17.637[2] 1:17.706[1] -0.069 +12.938 16
45 1:17.860[2] 1:17.963[1] -0.103 +12.835 17
46 1:18.193[2] 1:18.007[1] +0.186 +13.021 29
47 1:17.707[2] 1:17.853[1] -0.146 +12.875 18
48 1:17.924[2] 1:17.279[1] +0.645 +13.520 30
49 1:17.952[2] 1:17.725[1] +0.227 +13.747 31
50 1:17.932[2] 1:17.744[1] +0.188 +13.935 32

Verstappen on the left Hamilton on the right.

4 vs 4

Verstappen gained half a second, then Hamilton answered back by getting back the half second, then Verstappen crashed out.

Hamilton had the benefit of running in clean air, while Verstappen took more out of his tires getting past Bottas, and running in his wake. Given the circumstances his pace was excellent.

No way Max was able to match Merc at Imola. When Maxnwent faster, Lewis just matched it. doing what he needed to do. Either way, theres no way of knowing the true pace so its kind of irrelevant.