2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[rbirules]

Looking at the last four races of last season, Verstappen outscored Norris—not just because of the rain in Interlagos. In fact, Verstappen was the fastest in the dry sprint race in Interlagos. He was also quicker than Norris in Qatar and Las Vegas, with McLaren only having the edge in Abu Dhabi. This suggests that Red Bull had already corrected the biggest weaknesses in their car by the end of last season. So I see no reason why they can't be good this year.

But he was still much slower than both Merc boys and Ferrari boys.

Only in Vegas.

Brazil - Max was very fast (fastest?) in the sprint in dry conditions. He was awesome in the wet, got caught behind Leclerc for a while but that's it.

Vegas - Ahead of McLaren but car wasn't as good as Ferrari or Mercedes.

Qatar - horrible in the sprint, great changes for the GP. Was keeping Norris at bay until Norris' penalty for ingoring (or not seeing) double waved yellows removed him from the fight at the front. Norris was rapid at the end of the race as the McLaren often was on low fuel.

Abu Dhabi - Max missed out on pole but was in the mix in qualifying. Made up a spot on Sainz at the start but then his move on Oscar was a step too far and it ruined his race then and there. Would he have been able to hang with Lando and use DRS to stay with him or pass him? Or would Lando have simply driven away from him? I have no idea.

In summary the RB20 wasn't drastically behind any car in the last four races of the season except for Vegas where Mercedes did very well in cooler conditions (and Ferrari to a lesser extent). But also those last four races had a wet race, a very cold race, a race where Norris was removed from the fight due to a penalty and a race where Max was removed from the fight due to a L1T1 mistake and subsequent penalty. It would be a lot easier if Qatar and Abu Dhabi went down to the wire with both still in the race. Whether that "ending point" translates to a similar "starting point" this year remains to be seen.

[Emag]

Might as well have said "almost nothing", it would have been equally true (or untrue to be more accurate).

No, because it is quite true in racing, the relevant sport in the discussion. If you believe that it's easier to attack than defend (assuming equal cars) then you're being naive.

2021 is a relevant example, it has the same elements you complained about with one major difference, the driver. All time great driver in the best car, the gap gets closed. Good driver in the best car for a much longer part of the season, the gap gets... bigger? That doesn't reflect well on the second driver, they clearly didn't use the full potential of the car otherwise they would have gotten closer. Ten million excuses won't change that.

I did not complain about anything. You just chose to discard all what I said to claim that it has "the same elements" when I just explained to you that it didn't in fact have the same elements at all. They're completely different scenarios. Not to mention the fact that even when taking your "argument" as true, you're still disproving yourself, because Lewis was unable to win in the end, even with a smaller point deficit to cover ...

I don't really care for Lando, McLaren or their mistakes, nor am I claiming they were perfect. Getting "closer" means jack sh*t. Could finish 2nd 60 points behind or finish 2nd with 1 point behind, you're still going to be the loser. However, when you twist the narrative to make it like Max had to pull some miracle to defend a championship with a 60+ point cushion, then that's clearly just unnecessary gloating on your part. It wasn't McLaren's championship to win, it was Max's to lose, especially with 2 other teams involved taking points away from his direct rival.

I am also tired of people using second drivers to establish the ceiling of the car, which automatically elevates the other driver to deity level whenever they have great performances. It's the same story as with Alonso in 2012. Ferrari didn't start the season great, but they improved to the point where the F2012 was one of the strongest cars in race pace. Does that take anything away from Fernando? No it does not, he was amazing, but he wasn't breaking the laws of physics to put the car "where it didn't belong". Massa was just bad, that doesn't mean the car was bad.

The same thing is happening with Max last season. Was he amazing? Undoubtedly, he was amazing. But the RB20 was not some midfield-level car that Max somehow managed to win races with by channeling his inner god energy. It is the best driver that establishes the level of the car, not the weakest driver. If you take Piastri as the reference for McLaren's pace in 2024, then McLaren was 3rd best car overall in the season ...

The races which Max didn't have a car that at least allowed him to challenge for the win last year, can be counted with one hand. It's still impressive that he made the most out of his opportunities, but the car wasn't as bad as people make it to be just because Perez was too busy being mediocre for the last 1.5 years of his career.

[langedweil]

The final race last year gave a glimpse of a new Lando. Under severe pressure needing to win to take home to constructors.

I'd say there was no pressure at all left after Brazil, WCC would have been stupid and almost impossible to lose.
If there's no pressure from Max, Lewis or even Charles, Lando will be fine. But if he feels the chasing breath behond himself, it remains to be seen if last year hardened him enough to be that tough cookie.
Whether Lando, Charles or Max take WDC would all be fine, I just hope it's not that eight ...

[CHT]

Well i think any driver needs the fastest car on the day to win races. When the redbull was not fastest it did not win.
2024 there was a a big cushion that got eaten away and then Redbull improved the car to be a winner which slowed the bleeding of points. There were no miracles last year.
If the car doesnt have that cushion by being dominant in the first 8 races then there is no WDC if the car is not the fastest most of the time.
McLaren will run at the front and will stay there. If we go by last year they did not make any development mistakes. Max has never chased down a championship lead before, worse in a slower car. So I would be cautious about being too faithful in drivers. The faith should be in the engineers and sporting team to make the car the fastest.

To win WDC you also need to have a weaker teammate. Max obviously benefited from having Perez.
The same cant be said about Mclaren. Its very possible that Oscar will challenge Lando for race win again this season.
Both drivers are equally hungry to be WDC

If the two McLaren drivers can consistently keep fighting for race wins, it only means both of them would consistently increase gap to Max. Unless, either McLaren driver when doesn't win, always finishes third behind Max, who would always end up 2nd. That's a difficult ask. These cars are now almost bullet proof and reliability failures are a distant thing. There is no way Max can win in a WDC in second best car against two strong drivers in McLaren. He can only do so when he has a car with which he can win a good number of races on merit, even if his number of wins are less than the McLaren drivers', but can consistently finish 2nd in most races.

I agree with ringo that Max had a good cushion and McLaren wasn't 100% consistent last year. Also, Ferrari and Mercedes weren't consistently quick across the season. If Ferrari manages a car that is as good as Red Bull and Mercedes shows up more often than last year, then Max always finishing behind McLaren is an impossible ask.

Besides, Max can lose his cool far more easily and get frustrated when not leading the race, due to which he has made a lot of racing errors. As we saw in Mexico, penalties may galore if that sort of driving returns. He is not too far on penalty points and can easily get a race ban.

The pecking order for 2025 will likely to be closer than 2024 and its expected that some circuits will favor some team over others. To win WDC, the driver will need to secure maximum point for every race and that is to finish ahead of teammate. For team with clear no. 1 driver, it is a lot easier than a team who has no clear no. 1.
e,g
MS in Ferrari
LH in Merc
Max in RBR

[_cerber1]

Fastest car for 3/4 of the season, perfect reliability compared to the main competition who had to take grid penalties. Result, more made up excuses than points gained in the WDC.

Here is the real reason the gap never closed. Imola, Spain, Canada, Britain, Hungary, Spa, Monza, Baku, USGP, Brazil, Qatar. A bunch of races where Lando underperformed and lost points he shouldn't have. How many controversial clashes with Verstappen happened in those races? One (US), because Lando leaves the door open and Max doesn't need a second invitation. And how about Brazil, you start the race on pole and the guy you need to beat starts 17th. You finish 6th whilst the other guys wins. You're not winning anything like this, and Lando knows it. He makes less excuses than you do. Hopefully with that sober mentality he improves and makes the most out of his opportunities this year.

What makes you think I'm making excuses? I gave you the cold figures that as soon as Lando got a competitive car, he scored almost the same number of points as Verstappen, essentially losing him by 1 point. You started to come up with where Norris should have won. Ridiculous.

[Vettel165]

The fact after Miami is that Max actually scored the same points then Lando in the second/third best car. And Mclaren was the fastest one, Max did its job, Lando not. The point is if Max or Lewis had that Mclaren last year they would won the WDC by at least 30 points. For me 2024 was a miracle.

[Henri]

Might as well have said "almost nothing", it would have been equally true (or untrue to be more accurate).

No, because it is quite true in racing, the relevant sport in the discussion. If you believe that it's easier to attack than defend (assuming equal cars) then you're being naive.

2021 is a relevant example, it has the same elements you complained about with one major difference, the driver. All time great driver in the best car, the gap gets closed. Good driver in the best car for a much longer part of the season, the gap gets... bigger? That doesn't reflect well on the second driver, they clearly didn't use the full potential of the car otherwise they would have gotten closer. Ten million excuses won't change that.

I did not complain about anything. You just chose to discard all what I said to claim that it has "the same elements" when I just explained to you that it didn't in fact have the same elements at all. They're completely different scenarios. Not to mention the fact that even when taking your "argument" as true, you're still disproving yourself, because Lewis was unable to win in the end, even with a smaller point deficit to cover ...

I don't really care for Lando, McLaren or their mistakes, nor am I claiming they were perfect. Getting "closer" means jack sh*t. Could finish 2nd 60 points behind or finish 2nd with 1 point behind, you're still going to be the loser. However, when you twist the narrative to make it like Max had to pull some miracle to defend a championship with a 60+ point cushion, then that's clearly just unnecessary gloating on your part. It wasn't McLaren's championship to win, it was Max's to lose, especially with 2 other teams involved taking points away from his direct rival.

I am also tired of people using second drivers to establish the ceiling of the car, which automatically elevates the other driver to deity level whenever they have great performances. It's the same story as with Alonso in 2012. Ferrari didn't start the season great, but they improved to the point where the F2012 was one of the strongest cars in race pace. Does that take anything away from Fernando? No it does not, he was amazing, but he wasn't breaking the laws of physics to put the car "where it didn't belong". Massa was just bad, that doesn't mean the car was bad.

The same thing is happening with Max last season. Was he amazing? Undoubtedly, he was amazing. But the RB20 was not some midfield-level car that Max somehow managed to win races with by channeling his inner god energy. It is the best driver that establishes the level of the car, not the weakest driver. If you take Piastri as the reference for McLaren's pace in 2024, then McLaren was 3rd best car overall in the season ...

The races which Max didn't have a car that at least allowed him to challenge for the win last year, can be counted with one hand. It's still impressive that he made the most out of his opportunities, but the car wasn't as bad as people make it to be just because Perez was too busy being mediocre for the last 1.5 years of his career.

Well said. McLaren brought the miami upgrade to late if they brought it in the 2rd race norris would have won the title but the rb20 was dominant in the first 10 races

[Henri]

The fact after Miami is that Max actually scored the same points then Lando in the second/third best car. And Mclaren was the fastest one, Max did its job, Lando not. The point is if Max or Lewis had that Mclaren last year they would won the WDC by at least 30 points. For me 2024 was a miracle.

Max did great but McLaren had the 4th fastest car untin miami last year

[TimW]

Please stop this nonsense, we have heard all these arguments a million times already.

[Alexf1]

Agree, any news on Red Bull with regards to the upcoming weekend?

[Sieper]

Please stop this nonsense, we have heard all these arguments a million times already.

This. I already made the same comment on what was it, page 15. Nothing gets done.

[Vanja #66]

Hint - if no posts are reported for off topic and spam, there's a very small chance mods will see them by themselves. If a post is reported, there's a 100% chance a mod will see it and act accordingly