2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

[basti313]

As predicted Bottas sacrificed raxe pace for qualifying pace and it came back and bit him in the Bott.

I still can not see this. Q was decided for Bot, because Ham lost 3tenth in his last run. This is the normal gap between the two. It has nothing to do with Bot being faster then usual. So where is the point in Q setup???

Looking back it was a stupid move because now the team thinks he's another Kimi in race pace and surely gives more traction to making Hamilton the number 1 driver from now on.

Also in the race, Bot showed his very usual pace. The Merc was not rocketship faster than the Ferrari and Bot lost on equal tires, corrected by the overtakes only 2 sec in his S stint in 10 laps on Vet.
This also gives the roughly 0.3 sec disadvantage to a top driver.

Merc just hesitated to give Bot the clear "move over for Nr 1" radio at the beginning of the second stint as this is not taken good by the fans. Later they did. They will struggle from this marketing nightmare for the rest of the season.

[Bill_Kar]

People forget that a car in front can still get undercut just as it did in previous years. For Mercedes, difference now is that they don't have only their own two cars leading the race, but a red car as well (it could have been dark blue or orange-black or yellow-black, doesn't matter). Where, in previous years, they determined the strategy for the car behind, now they don't and that car behind can (and will, given the chance) undercut the car in front.

Unless the car in front goes first (and that's always a risk, as seen in China and almost in Bahrain) or it makes a stellar lap (while the car behind is on an out-lap) and goes right in after it, there doesn't seem to be much you can do. And don't forget that with these cars it's more difficult to overtake and new Pirellis have a very linear degradation, so the car leading after its final stop has the best chances to win, whatever the car behind does. That too is a lot different compared to previous years...

I see your argument. For the first paragraph, yes, it can always get undercut but previous years when pitting, Mercedes was in front by a lot more. So even staying out for 4 or 5 laps wouldn't hurt them. Now, vettel in particular is just behind you all the time.

What happened in China? I don't get it.
My problem is that if you weren't targeting a one stopper why pull your drivers' stint by much? There was clear air as we saw from vettel so that wasn't the problem. Plus, Mercedes pace (well, Hamilton's pace) on softs was INFALLIBLE. It makes sense to damp as fast as possible the problematic SS and start working on your tyres.

[Phil]

Since this being discussed here... i found and posted this in the race thread:

According to AMuS, on Hamiltons second Q3 run, the DRS flap didnt open which might be why he lost so much in sector 2 and ultimately pole. Is that the back straight? Any info on this?

Link: http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 08674.html

Relevant quote:

„Zwischen Kurve zehn und elf ging das DRS nicht. Das hat mich zwei Zehntel gekostet. In der letzten Kurve verlor ich ein weiteres halbes Zehntel.“

So between T10 and T11 the DRS didnt open, that cost about 2 tenths. Then last corner he lost another half tenth.

[Bill_Kar]

Yes, Phil. The back straight is in sector 2.
But if that's the case, why nobody said anything?

[basti313]

Yes, Phil. The back straight is in sector 2.
But if that's the case, why nobody said anything?

There is no "if". The wing was closed.
No need to talk about it, as nothing was defective. The wing was working before, afterwards and no repair in parc fermé. Ham simply failed to open it by pressing the button too early. This happens to every driver.

[Santozini]

There is no "if". The wing was closed.
No need to talk about it, as nothing was defective. The wing was working before, afterwards and no repair in parc fermé. Ham simply failed to open it by pressing the button too early. This happens to every driver.

Could it be that Hamilton was feeling the pressure and forced him into doing a mistake? He did show in the past that he can crack under pressure. Maybe the thought of the Ferraris being there in the fight and Bottas challenging him for pole played a part. Also, the day after he made another mistake which gave him a 5sec penalty.

[basti313]

Could it be that Hamilton was feeling the pressure and forced him into doing a mistake?

No.

He did show in the past that he can crack under pressure.

Actually I never saw this. I saw mediocre appearances from him, but they were never linked to pressure.

Also, the day after he made another mistake which gave him a 5sec penalty.

I think he is simply not at 100%. It reminds me a bit of 2011 and I think it is mainly based on the pre season expectations. He knew he had Bot clearly in his pocket and until Oz it looked like he can walk easily to his next WDC.
I guess this will change soon.

[Santozini]

Could it be that Hamilton was feeling the pressure and forced him into doing a mistake?

No.

He did show in the past that he can crack under pressure.

Actually I never saw this. I saw mediocre appearances from him, but they were never linked to pressure.

Hungary 2015 and Spain 2016...both on the first lap, both while fighting with probably the one driver he would never tolerate to lose to...

[basti313]

Could it be that Hamilton was feeling the pressure and forced him into doing a mistake?

No.

He did show in the past that he can crack under pressure.

Actually I never saw this. I saw mediocre appearances from him, but they were never linked to pressure.

Hungary 2015 and Spain 2016...both on the first lap, both while fighting with probably the one driver he would never tolerate to lose to...

You can not take two random crashes and make a pressure conclusion. Both were down on stupid pre-fight expectations: In Hungary Ham thought, that Ros will move away as usual. But he did not...Later he expected to fly past the RedBull...but the RedBull was fast.
The same for Spain: The only way to overtake there is usually to be on the inside. The better way would have been to stay on the line but both drivers were committed to fight for the inside as this was their pre race plan...

[Bill_Kar]

I think he is simply not at 100%. It reminds me a bit of 2011 and I think it is mainly based on the pre season expectations. He knew he had Bot clearly in his pocket and until Oz it looked like he can walk easily to his next WDC.
I guess this will change soon.

Well, in the end he was beaten by Button in 2011 though

[PlatinumZealot]

There is no "if". The wing was closed.
No need to talk about it, as nothing was defective. The wing was working before, afterwards and no repair in parc fermé. Ham simply failed to open it by pressing the button too early. This happens to every driver.

Could it be that Hamilton was feeling the pressure and forced him into doing a mistake? He did show in the past that he can crack under pressure. Maybe the thought of the Ferraris being there in the fight and Bottas challenging him for pole played a part. Also, the day after he made another mistake which gave him a 5sec penalty.

I don't think so actaully. Historically Hamilton has performed under pressure many times. Too many times to recall here. What might have caused him to miss the DRS button was because he was too anxious to press it trying to get every last milisecond seing that Bottas was ahead by a few hundreths in the previous run.

You don't get the 3rd most pole positions in history by cracking under pressure.

[SR71]

There is no "if". The wing was closed.
No need to talk about it, as nothing was defective. The wing was working before, afterwards and no repair in parc fermé. Ham simply failed to open it by pressing the button too early. This happens to every driver.

Could it be that Hamilton was feeling the pressure and forced him into doing a mistake? He did show in the past that he can crack under pressure. Maybe the thought of the Ferraris being there in the fight and Bottas challenging him for pole played a part. Also, the day after he made another mistake which gave him a 5sec penalty.

I don't think so actaully. Historically Hamilton has performed under pressure many times. Too many times to recall here. What might have caused him to miss the DRS button was because he was too anxious to press it trying to get every last milisecond seing that Bottas was ahead by a few hundreths in the previous run.

You don't get the 3rd most pole positions in history by cracking under pressure.

That's called cracking... Mistake forced by pressure.

The fact that Hamilton hasn't accused his team of anything could hint at it being his fault.

Alternatively, zero hesitation from his team in giving orders to Bottas could be viewed as payback for DRS technical error if it was Merc's fault.

OR, full tinfoil hat theory - the "over pressure" tires on Bottas car could have been done on purpose to make up for a technical error on DRS the team could have avoided.

*ducks for cover

[Bill_Kar]

Anyone knows what lead to Hamilton's halt today?

[Phil]

Ham simply failed to open it by pressing the button too early. This happens to every driver.

I'm not sure I believe this. The back straight is long enough, so if it doesn't open, one would assume he'd press it again to get it opened. Or is there a time limit, as in, press too early and the button blocks itself by 5 seconds?

Also, how is it determined when the DRS can be opened? By signal? Given how the system works, I wouldn't expect it to be entirely faultless. Maybe a failure rate of 1 out of 100? We've seen it far too often happen, but in circumstances where they are less likely to be picked up by the broadcast, e.g. during a race when following another car. DRS doesn't open? Too bad, just try again in the next zone. But in QF, the impact is of course bigger given the importance of that one-lap.

[Juzh]

Ham simply failed to open it by pressing the button too early. This happens to every driver.

I'm not sure I believe this. The back straight is long enough, so if it doesn't open, one would assume he'd press it again to get it opened. Or is there a time limit, as in, press too early and the button blocks itself by 5 seconds?

Also, how is it determined when the DRS can be opened? By signal? Given how the system works, I wouldn't expect it to be entirely faultless. Maybe a failure rate of 1 out of 100? We've seen it far too often happen, but in circumstances where they are less likely to be picked up by the broadcast, e.g. during a race when following another car. DRS doesn't open? Too bad, just try again in the next zone. But in QF, the impact is of course bigger given the importance of that one-lap.

I'd say because no technical information has been provided apart from "drs didn't work" there's a much higher chance Hamilton himself didn't open the drs and/or tried to open it too quickly, and then not realising it himself for the duration of the straight.
Drs was "working" on the main straight on both q3 laps and on the back straight on his first lap. If there was in fact a technical failure there'd be much more fuss about it.