This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
I'd hazard a guess that Max signed a contract with another team and the heads above Horner saw this as their star driver losing faith in the team. After all the other technical resignations that was the straw that broke the camels back so out the door Horner goes.
It could be. I see the Mercedes interest and the clause as potential leverage for Max to shape the team the way he wants and still remain an undisputed star at RB, I don't think we'll see him leave now, but you never know.
I lean slightly more towards this but think it could easily be too Max has gone on top of losing, Newey, Wheatley, Marshall and a few others in very recent times management might have just decided if Max was to go them maybe its best they start from scratch with all that's going on. Giving that much control to a driver - as good as I think Max is too can easily be fought with danger he decides in a few years he's done and whoever takes over struggle...
There was practically a smear campaign against Horner, where they did a character assassination on him, and I imagine that disrupted the team unity. Despite being cleared of all the wrongdoing, obviously many people working in the team could not necessarily trust Horner after that. Poor Horner was a victim of this campaign. But it was probably the right decision for Red Bull. If Mekies is more trusted by the staff, then yes. Because this is a team sport, and it's team unity that counts.
Horner was only ever 'cleared' by Red Bull's own internal investigation. In no world does that actually prove his innocence, come on now. A legal case is still ongoing, one that is being kept hush. And may result in a settlement, which is also not proof of innocence. Often far from it.
You gloss over that it was only ever people within Red Bull who made it public in the first place, because it is inconvenient to your argument. Do you think they decided to weaponise their HR process against themselves? No, it was supposed to get rid of Horner and it failed.
This is the follow-up.
Think.
What doesn’t get mentioned at all is that Horner was also working towards an ownership stake in the team.
That’s not an appropriate amount of unconditional loyalty for an insecure Mateschitz.
I don't understand why people think this means Max is staying, this is all more reason to leave, replacing Horner on top of the other big names they've lost this year means that it's going to be harder than ever to create the best car/team and culture. These are massive shoes to fill and the new guys can't be expected to perform miracles, Mekies doesn't even look like a long term solution, perhaps just holding position until they find someone better.
Jos was calling for his head last year, but i can't see how this is anything but a disaster.
Do Max/Jos that the team will magically go back to the top now that Horner is gone? Does Jos thinks he will run the team? Does Max trusts his dad as "undercover team principal"?
The obvious decision is to leave the sinking ship.
Firing Horner solves very little (more symbolic than anything else), if they aren't going to bolster their engineering teams with top personnel again. They also need to improve their simulation tools, which @ Vanja says on twitter are also outdated, wind tunnel only coming in late 26. Max isn't going to wait another 4-5 years this rebuild is going to take, even then there's no guarantees it's going to work.
Crofty said Horner broke down in his farewell speech and that the team members at Milton Keynes are not happy that he’s been sacked.
The problem is that Red Bull has a very old wind tunnel, and it looks like that in the final years of this ground effect regulation, it's just not good enough to make a winning car. They still suffer from correlation problems. And not even Newey or Marshall could fix that. The cure will be in 2027, that's the first car they will design in the brand new wind tunnell.
Every dominant team will eventually face this problem. You cannot keep the same key figures forever.
My point is that I dont think Horner has himself been an important factor in Red Bull's success over all this time since initially helping to build up the team. Heck, it's not even uncommon in business for some exec to come in specifically with the aim of helping build up or restructure a company and then moving on to some other company after it's been achieved. There's still kudos to building up something great. But it seems an awful lot like Horner was simply along for the ride for most of this time since and that maybe his specific role as TP for Red Bull does not really merit all the praise, versus the more important people(or maybe even person...) who actually made Horner look good.
There was practically a smear campaign against Horner, where they did a character assassination on him, and I imagine that disrupted the team unity. Despite being cleared of all the wrongdoing, obviously many people working in the team could not necessarily trust Horner after that. Poor Horner was a victim of this campaign. But it was probably the right decision for Red Bull. If Mekies is more trusted by the staff, then yes. Because this is a team sport, and it's team unity that counts.
Horner was only ever 'cleared' by Red Bull's own internal investigation. In no world does that actually prove his innocence, come on now. A legal case is still ongoing, one that is being kept hush. And may result in a settlement, which is also not proof of innocence. Often far from it.
You gloss over that it was only ever people within Red Bull who made it public in the first place, because it is inconvenient to your argument. Do you think they decided to weaponise their HR process against themselves? No, it was supposed to get rid of Horner and it failed.
This is the follow-up.
Think.
What doesn’t get mentioned at all is that Horner was also working towards an ownership stake in the team.
That’s not an appropriate amount of unconditional loyalty for an insecure Mateschitz.
My 'argument' was merely that being cleared via internal investigation does not prove innocence. Nor would a legal settlement if that's what ends up happening with all this.
Everything else you're saying is basically just speculation, bordering on outright conspiracy.
Every dominant team will eventually face this problem. You cannot keep the same key figures forever.
My point is that I dont think Horner has himself been an important factor in Red Bull's success over all this time since initially helping to build up the team. Heck, it's not even uncommon in business for some exec to come in specifically with the aim of helping build up or restructure a company and then moving on to some other company after it's been achieved. There's still kudos to building up something great. But it seems an awful lot like Horner was simply along for the ride for most of this time since and that maybe his specific role as TP for Red Bull does not really merit all the praise, versus the more important people(or maybe even person...) who actually made Horner look good.
We know what your point is. The problem is there’s zero basis for it.
How would you even know you were wrong? Let alone right?
Horner was only ever 'cleared' by Red Bull's own internal investigation. In no world does that actually prove his innocence, come on now. A legal case is still ongoing, one that is being kept hush. And may result in a settlement, which is also not proof of innocence. Often far from it.
You gloss over that it was only ever people within Red Bull who made it public in the first place, because it is inconvenient to your argument. Do you think they decided to weaponise their HR process against themselves? No, it was supposed to get rid of Horner and it failed.
This is the follow-up.
Think.
What doesn’t get mentioned at all is that Horner was also working towards an ownership stake in the team.
That’s not an appropriate amount of unconditional loyalty for an insecure Mateschitz.
My 'argument' was merely that being cleared via internal investigation does not prove innocence. Nor would a legal settlement if that's what ends up happening with all this.
Everything else you're saying is basically just speculation, bordering on outright conspiracy.
It’s like you think we haven’t seen thousands of power struggles and smear campaigns play out ever since the dawn of civilisation. It’s more conspiratorial to think this one is any different. The fact that internal HR materials were leaked to the public is fact, not conspiracy. Yet everything you cite is conveniently still confidential.
Firing Horner solves very little (more symbolic than anything else), if they aren't going to bolster their engineering teams with top personnel again. They also need to improve their simulation tools, which @ Vanja says on twitter are also outdated, wind tunnel only coming in late 26. Max isn't going to wait another 4-5 years this rebuild is going to take, even then there's no guarantees it's going to work.
Crofty said Horner broke down in his farewell speech and that the team members at Milton Keynes are not happy that he’s been sacked.
More turmoil, more people unhappy is exactly what they didn't need.
Like you said they'll go through a long reconstruction now.
I'd hazard a guess that Max signed a contract with another team and the heads above Horner saw this as their star driver losing faith in the team. After all the other technical resignations that was the straw that broke the camels back so out the door Horner goes.
It could be. I see the Mercedes interest and the clause as potential leverage for Max to shape the team the way he wants and still remain an undisputed star at RB, I don't think we'll see him leave now, but you never know.
I lean slightly more towards this but think it could easily be too Max has gone on top of losing, Newey, Wheatley, Marshall and a few others in very recent times management might have just decided if Max was to go them maybe its best they start from scratch with all that's going on. Giving that much control to a driver - as good as I think Max is too can easily be fought with danger he decides in a few years he's done and whoever takes over struggle...
I can't see the team waiting for Max to go to take action. Max is so plugged into the team I'd be surprised if they didn't know what is happening and if he didn't keep them up to date. My feeling is if they pulled the trigger it is because they think it will keep Max at the team.
Are they worried Max might be the only guy who can drive the 26 car? I would be. The potential consequences of this team if Max were to leave are extreme.
2021 - rising to the top, win WDC, miss WCC by a whisker
2022 - consolidate, win WDC and WCC. However, Mateschitz dies, and triggers 'game of thrones'.
2023 - peak redbull, utter dominance, WDC and WCC in the bag halfway through the season. Despite the game of thrones going on in the background. Horner commits huge investment into RBPT and massive hiring is carried out.
Rob Marshall leaves to McLaren, end of season.
--winter break & secretary gate----
Game of thrones reaches feverish pitch.
Newey has had enough of this chaos, and leaves ; followed by other key top level technical staff who have taken the cue from him. The team is now run by a bunch of 'was second in command, now thrust to first in command' people in various departments.
2024 - starts off as if the car is fine, then as if a switch was flicked, car becomes terrible in Miami and no amount of band-aid jobs can fix the car. However, because Max is Max and produces some genius moments with the car, WDC is won. McLaren and their drivers not being 'championship battle ready' helps immensely.
2025 - car is terrible by now, and it's down to pure luck and 'overnight simulator driven fixes' after collecting Friday data, that they are even able to produce a reasonably competitive car for Q and R. Clear signs that the system is broken and the team is going from weekend to weekend on hope and prayer, rather than on 'preparation'. Most importantly, no one knows how to fix the car or what is the root cause(s) of all it's terribleness. Star driver from the past 10 yrs is starting to sulk, and understandably so.
Meanwhile, musical chairs with drivers has been happening in the background, but that's the least of the team's problems.
But none of the above captures the biggest problem facing the team :
- huge investment has been made in RBPT and have also partnered with Ford. What is going to become of it ? WIll this become an abandoned/'sold off cheap' entity, or will they break the Ford partnership and bring in Porsche ? is that even technically feasible ? IMHO, RBPT is the biggest 'problem element' in this fire-Horner saga, because he is the guy who recruited and put together the entire project.
You gloss over that it was only ever people within Red Bull who made it public in the first place, because it is inconvenient to your argument. Do you think they decided to weaponise their HR process against themselves? No, it was supposed to get rid of Horner and it failed.
This is the follow-up.
Think.
What doesn’t get mentioned at all is that Horner was also working towards an ownership stake in the team.
That’s not an appropriate amount of unconditional loyalty for an insecure Mateschitz.
My 'argument' was merely that being cleared via internal investigation does not prove innocence. Nor would a legal settlement if that's what ends up happening with all this.
Everything else you're saying is basically just speculation, bordering on outright conspiracy.
It’s like you think we haven’t seen thousands of power struggles and smear campaigns play out ever since the dawn of civilisation. It’s more conspiratorial to think this one is any different. The fact that internal HR materials were leaked to the public is fact, not conspiracy. Yet everything you cite is conveniently still confidential.
'Smear campaigns have existed before, therefore anytime anybody ever gets criticized or accused of something, we MUST assume that it is also a smear campaign.'
That's absolutely tragically lousy logic. And I say tragically because we've certainly seen tons of powerful people 'since the dawn of civilization' getting away with all kinds of terrible things, yet you dont apply the same logic that we MUST assume it's the same situation here simply because it's happened plenty in the past?
And I have no idea what you think I'm 'citing'. You're the one taking a hard stance on this, not me. I just pointed out that Horner was never truly proven innocent.
I just don't understand this decision at all. Yes team is not doing well atm (hell, they can't be always winning... Toto is still at Mercedes and they are struggling since 2022). The only logical think behind this is that Max stays. But even so, how long. Maybe a year? what (and this is big possibility) if the flop with PU? They will lose Max, No Horner... Team is facing relegating to midfield regulary.....
Was Newey in fight with Horner? I don't recall exactly reasoning behind his leaving.. If his leaving was solely because of Horner, then why they didn't fire him last year. This year they are losing key staff member and they lost key engineer..
Every dominant team will eventually face this problem. You cannot keep the same key figures forever.
My point is that I dont think Horner has himself been an important factor in Red Bull's success over all this time since initially helping to build up the team. Heck, it's not even uncommon in business for some exec to come in specifically with the aim of helping build up or restructure a company and then moving on to some other company after it's been achieved. There's still kudos to building up something great. But it seems an awful lot like Horner was simply along for the ride for most of this time since and that maybe his specific role as TP for Red Bull does not really merit all the praise, versus the more important people(or maybe even person...) who actually made Horner look good.
We know what your point is. The problem is there’s zero basis for it.
How would you even know you were wrong? Let alone right?
It's certainly impossible to know either way. That is very much just my speculation, based on how incredibly successful Adrian Newey has been elsewhere, and how fast things fell apart for Red Bull after he left. I've long felt that Newey was the important person at Red Bull creating their lasting success. Not Horner, outside of simply listening to and letting Newey do his thing. And it seems like as soon as he did stop listening to Newey, things started going bad and in part led to him leaving.
F1NAC wrote:I just don't understand this decision at all. Yes team is not doing well atm (hell, they can't be always winning... Toto is still at Mercedes and they are struggling since 2022). The only logical think behind this is that Max stays. But even so, how long. Maybe a year? what (and this is big possibility) if the flop with PU? They will lose Max, No Horner... Team is facing relegating to midfield regulary.....
Was Newey in fight with Horner? I don't recall exactly reasoning behind his leaving.. If his leaving was solely because of Horner, then why they didn't fire him last year. This year they are losing key staff member and they lost key engineer..
I don't understand this at all.
Maybe Red Bull wanted to stop the power struggle and sacked Horner. Horner did say in '23 that it's all Wache, not Newey. Then Newey's wife told b*llshit, and soon after that Newey left.
