Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

[turbof1]

Given the biggest wing is the car itself, it makes sense not to put too much weight into smaller active aero devices.

[SR71]

Given the biggest wing is the car itself, it makes sense not to put too much weight into smaller active aero devices.

An active suspension could go a long way to balancing the performance of the "body wing".... pushing and pulling the COP fore and aft..

[Just_a_fan]

There is no "body wing". As Horner said today, the car is basically an F1 car with sexy bodywork. I've never seen a wing where third or more of the chord length is empty space...

[humble sabot]

I think we can actually be fairly confident that the rear wing, referred to as a 'blade' in one video being the only active peice is liable to be the case. Their weight goal is aggressive and has been pointed out the cooling/exhaust requirements are going to be pretty strenuous. I think there's a better chance of licking the cooling reqs since they have about the same space as an F1 for radiators and on the road you're allowed to use a fan to force air through them, with properly designed channels the small exits ought to be enough. The exhaust point is quite fair, and is asking a lot of physics, she's going to be loud for sure no matter how ingenious the solution. Already looking at some kind of magic i doubt they'll end up adding any more active surfaces. The front could be done, but I doubt we'll see that before the track only version and the platform is already mature.

I also think the "body wing" moniker is throwing people since your drawing is rather exaggerated. The front bodywork that will be acting as a wing is split at the toebox and finishes at the trailing edge of the front fender skirts. It has a very shallow incidence and seems to act as a partner to the front wing in the same way as an F1 nose does, that is, trying it's damndest to not allow the flow off the wing to turn into lift off of its underside. Here however it's also tasked with providing an elegant nose line which means more horizontal. That's nice for feeding underbody, but bad for the ratio of airspeed under the car to over. I feel like we'll see some development to adjust aero balance, i'm pretty worried it's overly rear biased. The 'white line' seems a relatively accurate trace of the diffuser-ey section and its interaction with the flow over the rear deck is going to be interesting. It's a pretty aggressive element as well, being quite deep and fairly steep, perhaps its low point being so far forward is what's going to allow the balance to work out, leaving the shallower chord 'blade' and front wing more as trim
elements.

For reference, I'm talking about the blue line in the first point, your red line is the exaggerated one.

[humble sabot]

The thickness and incidence are pretty far off on the blue one, but the chord line is pretty spot on imo. As in you've got the leading and trailing edges in the right spots.
What you drew is a sort of stylized high lift airfoil though, you should be thinking supercritical, as it's extremely thin, and pointed downwards a touch. It's fairly flat on top and as flat as they can fit underneath.
You can see how flat the underside is at 3:33 in the Schmee video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37AjQ1_EKn4
I think all i'm trying to say here is that that front blue section is basically a very large flow conditioner and not doing a huge amount to add to total DF. However! But lo! check out the view around the 4:50 mark https://youtu.be/37AjQ1_EKn4?t=289
It's a much more complex shape actually, mostly flat still, actually, i think it works out even thinner, but it does have an interesting curve under the front lip, that seems almost to hollow out just behind. Trying everything they can to have a continuous top surface and still get out of the way of the front wing's updraft. Clearly there's going to be no fitted luggage!

[ChrisDanger]

My problem with the image below is that you're trying to reduce this car to some simple 2D shapes, where the variation in shape laterally is very significant. While there is some merit to this, in perhaps it's "better than nothing", I wouldn't try and understand any behaviour from this illustration, apart from maybe that the underbody is interesting. I find the red curve in particular to be wholly unrepresentative, and the blue curve is not much better. There is a whole lot more going on here, with the interaction of a number of different features in all three dimensions.

Kudos for trying though. All I can say is that this car looks very slippery.

[Andres125sx]

I´m construction engineer, not aeronautycal engineer, so take this with a pinch of salt and feel free to correct me if.... well, I´ll better say when I´m wrong

I don´t understand that red line. Bernoulli states lift is generated when the upper part of the wing (sorry can´t find the word in english) force air to go across a longer cord than the lower part of the wing (on a plane). Different air speeds causes different pressures, and that generates lift.

With that red line I can´t see any difference between both lower and upper part, as that red line is completely ignoring the canopy, when it is there and it´s actually forcing air to go over a longer distance, and that would cause lift instead of DF.

From my ignorant point of view this is not an inverted wing, it is just a very big diffuser, wich acts completely differently. Well not completely, but a diffuser does not cause lift/DF because of different pressures caused by air going over different cord lenghts, but because of ground effects, or that vacuum efect caused by diffusers, as the space under the diffuser increases as air move backward (or the car move forward), and front aero/vortices always try to seal car sides so air does not enter the underside of the car filling that space. Increasing space with no air (ideally) filling that space, pressure go down, and that sucks the car generating DF. Same as a fan.


That´s my far from expert pov, I´d be glad to know some experts opinion to see how wrong I am

Bhall? Are you reading? I´m sure you´ll be happy correcting me

[NoDivergence]

Lots wrong with your assumptions, both with regards to your understanding of Bernoulli's as being something related to equal transit time theory (proven incorrect), and in why a diffuser works.

Because I'm just going to let Bhall explain to you the majority of that, I'm going to leave this.

In a diffuser, past the throat, pressure actually increases. It just happens to still be less than ambient and spread across a large surface area.

[domh245]

NASA have an article about how it isn't Bernoulli that creates lift on a wing, which would be the same case (but inverted) for an F1 wing, no?

[SR71]

My problem with the image below is that you're trying to reduce this car to some simple 2D shapes, where the variation in shape laterally is very significant. While there is some merit to this, in perhaps it's "better than nothing", I wouldn't try and understand any behaviour from this illustration, apart from maybe that the underbody is interesting. I find the red curve in particular to be wholly unrepresentative, and the blue curve is not much better. There is a whole lot more going on here, with the interaction of a number of different features in all three dimensions.

Kudos for trying though. All I can say is that this car looks very slippery.

https://s32.postimg.org/v6w1dx6yt/2wings_02.jpg

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback on the illustrations.

I guess I tried to make the point before that the red line was not accurate to actual body work, but illustrated my overall take on the principal of this car.... The white line for instance highlights how actual bodywork converges with the philosophy I've presented. I realize that wasnt clear but hopefully helps....

I've got a few more ideas to present the more I look at this car but again, my gut tells me that when Newey was unleashed from restrictions the last thing he would be interested in would be the little wings at the front and rear, anti-F1 in a way.

[ChrisDanger]

...my gut tells me that when Newey was unleashed from restrictions the last thing he would be interested in would be the little wings at the front and rear, anti-F1 in a way.

Newey has spent much of the latter part of his career perfecting these structures (which are flow-conditioning devices as much as downforce generators). "Inventing" an entirely new method would be a waste of resources . It would be effectively throwing out decades of work and starting again, to some degree.

[bhall II]

From my ignorant point of view this is not an inverted wing, it is just a very big diffuser, wich acts completely differently. Well not completely, but a diffuser does not cause lift/DF because of different pressures caused by air going over different cord lenghts, but because of ground effects, or that vacuum efect caused by diffusers, as the space under the diffuser increases as air move backward (or the car move forward), and front aero/vortices always try to seal car sides so air does not enter the underside of the car filling that space. Increasing space with no air (ideally) filling that space, pressure go down, and that sucks the car generating DF. Same as a fan.


That´s my far from expert pov, I´d be glad to know some experts opinion to see how wrong I am

Bhall? Are you reading? I´m sure you´ll be happy correcting me

You're sorta in the ballpark.

Because total pressure along any streamline is constant, if you can increase dynamic pressure, you'll concurrently reduce static pressure. That reduction in static pressure is suction, and it ultimately forms the basis of ground effect downforce.

In the world of racing, where dimensions are heavily regulated, it's usually advantageous to exclude some air flow, because efficiency is dictated by the rate in which air flow can be extracted from such a system. In other words, underbody downforce is diffuser-limited. If you can't get rid of air flow at least as quickly as it's introduced into the system, it will stagnate, thereby increasing pressure.

Free from such dimensional restraints, if you can efficiently extract a metric fücktonne of air flow, then accelerating a metric fücktonne of air flow will generate a metric fücktonne of downforce. That appears to be Newey's strategy here.

However, this also appears to be a highly conceptual work that will likely look different when its introduced as a final design. For instance, the front-end doesn't appear to conform to any pedestrian impact standards, and that won't fly in the real world (because the authorities don't like it when pedestrians fly in the real world).

[SR71]

...my gut tells me that when Newey was unleashed from restrictions the last thing he would be interested in would be the little wings at the front and rear, anti-F1 in a way.

Newey has spent much of the latter part of his career perfecting these structures (which are flow-conditioning devices as much as downforce generators). "Inventing" an entirely new method would be a waste of resources . It would be effectively throwing out decades of work and starting again, to some degree.

I disagree. Genius such as Newey will have bigger and better ideas than the pathetic restriction boxes forced upon him by F1.

if what you were saying was true then his interest in sailing would have never happened.

The chances of him being more interested in tiny wings versus ground effect over the entire length of the car is almost zero.

[Just_a_fan]

The chances of him being more interested in tiny wings versus ground effect over the entire length of the car is almost zero.

And yet there's an F1-style wing under the nose with F1-style treatment at the outer ends to direct air, F1-style, around the front wheels.

[SR71]

The chances of him being more interested in tiny wings versus ground effect over the entire length of the car is almost zero.

And yet there's an F1-style wing under the nose with F1-style treatment at the outer ends to direct air, F1-style, around the front wheels.

Yep. And? If he wanted make another f1 car he would have, that's not what we have here. So the fact that he didn't kinda says a lot...

Also he alreadt has an F1 program.

Just looking at the front wing and assuming it's doing the same thing that it does on an F1 car says a lot as well....