2025 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[AeroDynamic]

can you make a list since 2023 about this strategy problem?? like legit once, not every small disagreement on the radio between pitwall and driver. like legit strategical error.


while you are at it, on the side make one for merc, McLaren, and also redbull..

let see who has most..

if you can't make this list, don't parrot this like every person on the internet.
Ferrari don't any more errors than their rivals. currently Ferrari not winning mainly just lies in the car once they get a car that win they will win end of story..

I’m definitely not motivated to start going back and compiling lists to prove to you in behalf of the internet that we don’t imagine these sentiments. Since it’s your suggestion and standard you demand to validate things, feel free to compile those lists ur self and start there.

Do you want to address the actual topic? Do you think Horner is what’s needed to improve Ferrari or not? Do you think he wouldn’t make any personnel changes to the pitwall and strategy areas responsible for race weekend execution?

I don’t see how Horner can achieve short terms success.. he will have his own vision he has will make personnel changes and by the time he gets anything rolling we will have similar coordinated media attacks while he sleeps before a gp weekend.. so i was listening to some YouTube reaction video, martin brundle and other said the same thing after that redbull original owner died (can’t spell his name on mobile to lazy google) lot of power struggle occurred, but when he was there he had final say etc.. from what I’ve gathered mainly for online conversations, he knew to trust the team and does Elkann give you that energy I mean that redbull owner dint hire a tp from other team he dint hire jean tod from Ferrari at the time, no he got Horner , like did anyone think he could take them to 8 title victory? Redbull built there own legacy with there own people coz it had an Owner that probably understood what it took to win, Ferrari seems to be always in search for some hero a saviour.. same goes for many many fans online frothing at the news that Horner will join and suddenly take this team to victory.. I just don’t see it..

I can’t recall the red bull story reliably, vaguely I think it was Marko that was brought in by Mateschitz to build an f1 team. Marko picked up Horner from f3, Horner owned an F3 team I think (maybe it was f2). I’m not sure who picked up Newey, it may have been Marko as well. I know Newey told the story of Marko approaching him for Red Bull.

Elkann has made it clear in interviews that Ferrari need to open their teams doors to more outside talent coming in than preferring to hire locally and promote within. Vasseur wanted to do this. It’s too early to tell if it’s going to be a success. They tried to get Newey, Newey wanted more control (as he was accustomed to at red bull) and Ferrari management weren’t comfortable with that, they didn’t back Vasseur to offer Newey this.

The irony is, noise online is that Vasseur’s contract negotiations involve Vasseur asking for more decision making power within the f1 team operation. That tallies up with the sentiments Lewis Hamilton was alluding to in interviews over the past months (about so much going on in the background that he can’t talk about, and how there needs to be a lot of changes made) if Vasseur secures a new contract, with new decision making powers / responsibilities, it would make him a lot less of a employee like team principal and more of a real team boss who can make the outfit fit his vision.

If Ferrari give Vasseur this, with Elkann supporting, Hamilton and Leclerc backing, then Ferrari as an outfit will be in a better position to actually grow and become a better team.


The corporate side shouldn’t be in charge of it, they probably know more about the road side business than they do about f1.

[Luscion]

I dont see Horner moving to Ferrari as TP, he has his family and kids in the UK and its a lot to uproot all of that and move to italy and if team principles keep getting sacked the moment they mess up whats the guarantee for him it wont also happen to him after moving his entire life to another country? also during his speech he mentioned he's still going to be employeed with Red Bull hes just handing over the leadership roles. Right now ferrari need stability and based on what lewis has been saying the past few weeks theres already a lot of changes happening behind the scenes, give fred time.

[Fakepivot]

Yes so Ferrari don’t need Horner but Mateschitz , or enzo ghost manifest in elkann lol

[Seanspeed]

I can’t recall the red bull story reliably, vaguely I think it was Marko that was brought in by Mateschitz to build an f1 team. Marko picked up Horner from f3, Horner owned an F3 team I think (maybe it was f2). I’m not sure who picked up Newey, it may have been Marko as well. I know Newey told the story of Marko approaching him for Red Bull.

Horner owned Arden, which started in F3000, and then moved to GP2. Horner had a lot of connections with Marko during this time, who partly owned a competing team(RSM Marko). So when Marko got involved with Mateschitz's ambitions for an F1 entry via Red Bull, Horner already had something of an 'in'.

As for Newey, while Horner did have his eye on Newey(and who wouldn't?), it was actually David Coulthard who had the connection and set up a date with Mateschitz and Gerhard Berger where Newey was convinced to come work for them.

So yea, even Horner wasn't really that instrumental in making the single most pivotal and important move for Red Bull's future and future success.

[JPower]

Again, without Newey, none of that success would have happened. Horner was not the main pillar propping up Red Bull. That's why after he started disregarding Newey, leaving to Newey's exit, Red Bull started to decline. And now if it weren't for Max's brilliance and the still remaining remnants of Newey's influence, the team would likely look like some mediocre organization in shambles. That's what Horner's leadership looks like sans such a key figure.

I'm quite confident plenty of TP's could have been brought in and been very successful in place of Horner after like 2010 or so. Horner's actual part in that continued success is extremely questionable. It would be the height of folly to assume that Horner himself was the 'X factor' for Red Bull's sustained success and that he could bring that same degree of success without having Newey there to make him look good.

Complete nonsense. No one said he was the X factor but you can't just write off his entire 20 years of success like that. He was still responsible for leading the team. Not Newey. Even if you were to take Newey out of the equation, operationally Red Bull was/is still miles of Ferrari since 2005.

Like I said, I doubt it happens, but writing off Horner like he was just along for the ride is ahistorical and wrong. His name was rumored to Ferrari for a reason.

[Seanspeed]

Again, without Newey, none of that success would have happened. Horner was not the main pillar propping up Red Bull. That's why after he started disregarding Newey, leaving to Newey's exit, Red Bull started to decline. And now if it weren't for Max's brilliance and the still remaining remnants of Newey's influence, the team would likely look like some mediocre organization in shambles. That's what Horner's leadership looks like sans such a key figure.

I'm quite confident plenty of TP's could have been brought in and been very successful in place of Horner after like 2010 or so. Horner's actual part in that continued success is extremely questionable. It would be the height of folly to assume that Horner himself was the 'X factor' for Red Bull's sustained success and that he could bring that same degree of success without having Newey there to make him look good.

Complete nonsense. You can't just write off his entire 20 years of success like that. He was still responsible for leading the team. Not Newey.

Newey was basically running a lot of the most important aspects of organization behind the scenes, especially the whole technical department. It's clear that Newey was given wide ranging responsibility to build and run Red Bull Racing as he thought best. That's how they kept him for so long. Can we credit Horner for continuing to offer Newey that power and freedom? I guess, but I'd argue it doesn't take anything particularly special or genius to do so. Seems quite obvious. If anything, it was probably moreso Red Bull ownership's more lax ways of going about things, especially in the earlier days, that enabled Horner to be able to offer this kind of role to Newey in the first place.

Again y'alls argument only seems to come down to 'he won lots of championships' without actually diving any deeper into things than that. It's like when people try and argue that 'x' driver did better than another by simply looking at Wikipedia results without any further context or knowledge. It's just not enough of an argument if we're assessing what Horner himself could potentially bring to another team, if he doesn't also have Adrian Newey onboard running the most important parts of the team.

Like seriously, take a step back, and seriously think about it - do you REALLY think that Horner would have accomplished what he did without Adrian Newey being there that entire time? And that's it just a total coincidence that RBR started falling off when Newey's role was diminished to the point of him leaving? Come on now.

"His name was rumored to Ferrari for a reason"

Treating an unsubstantiated rumor as evidence of anything is hilarious.

[ScuderiaLeo]

According to AR in their livestream (still on-going as I type this) they haven't heard anything about Maranello seriously going after Horner, it's mostly media speculation and nothing coming from inside. The sentiment is that not many people in Ferrari want Horner or think he would be a good fit.

Rather TP discussions are focused on negotiations with Vasseur still, ongoing about how much power he should have and what the team's goals are. Reportedly Ferrari execs want to spread power equally between multiple high positions while Vasseur wants to be able to direct the team himself with key people reporting to him.

There are signs the extension talks are going positively but the conditions are not decided yet at all.

Not mentioned just now but I want to add they did say in a previous article in June about Vasseur, that most Ferrari staff strongly supported Vasseur, the people who don't believe in him are a minority.

[AeroDynamic]

Again, without Newey, none of that success would have happened. Horner was not the main pillar propping up Red Bull. That's why after he started disregarding Newey, leaving to Newey's exit, Red Bull started to decline. And now if it weren't for Max's brilliance and the still remaining remnants of Newey's influence, the team would likely look like some mediocre organization in shambles. That's what Horner's leadership looks like sans such a key figure.

I'm quite confident plenty of TP's could have been brought in and been very successful in place of Horner after like 2010 or so. Horner's actual part in that continued success is extremely questionable. It would be the height of folly to assume that Horner himself was the 'X factor' for Red Bull's sustained success and that he could bring that same degree of success without having Newey there to make him look good.

Complete nonsense. No one said he was the X factor but you can't just write off his entire 20 years of success like that. He was still responsible for leading the team. Not Newey. Even if you were to take Newey out of the equation, operationally Red Bull was/is still miles of Ferrari since 2005.

Like I said, I doubt it happens, but writing off Horner like he was just along for the ride is ahistorical and wrong. His name was rumored to Ferrari for a reason.

CH definitely deserves a share of credit for the success of RBR, but make no mistake, Newey, with the technical team and cars, built the ship that Horner and anyone else, was riding on. So while Horner and everybody else deserve credit for leaving so little room for weakness in the outfit from execution, strategy, politics in f1 etc, none of that makes them have the success they did without the cars. same thing with drivers.

So I definitely dont think its nonsense to apportion a significant amount of credit to Newey for Red Bull being winners as much as they were. You need all the pieces together, but all the pieces cant make a shitbox beat a rocket ship. Newey made sure the team weren't a failure where the most critical bridge to winning was concerned; the car.

[JPower]

Like seriously, take a step back, and seriously think about it - do you REALLY think that Horner would have accomplished what he did without Adrian Newey being there that entire time? And that's it just a total coincidence that RBR started falling off when Newey's role was diminished to the point of him leaving? Come on now.

Yeah, I've thought plenty about Horner keeping RBR running with strong personalities like Newey, Marko, and Materschitz together when all of them have no problem running over people to get what they want.

Undoubtedly, Newey was the key to unlocking success on the track, but the team still had to be run with direction.

I don't see why Horner's operational experience isn't something that would be highly valued by Elkann and the rest of Ferrari management. I think it's something Ferrari has missed since Todt left. No one is expecting Horner to be Newey. What they are expecting is someone who's competence is running a race team despite the strong personalities and stakeholders on all sides.

Vasseur is no slouch and I expect him to keep his job, but again, dismissing Horner like he's average is a mistake.

[Seanspeed]

Newey made sure the team weren't a failure where the most critical bridge to winning was concerned; the car.

That's probably the most succinct way of trying to say what I'm trying to say.

A number of TP's who ended up washing out in F1 likely could have had good, strong careers if their entire technical department was led by Adrian Newey and with the resources and freedom that Red Bull ownership allowed the whole dang time. lol

Again, I'm still giving Horner credit for helping build and steer RBR into what they became, but once the oiled ship was running at full steam, I very much do think Horner's actual importance to further success was much less impactful. To the degree that others could have jumped in and done a similarly good job. Everything is made easier when you have a good car(and drivers).

[AeroDynamic]

I’m surprised anyone, especially on a technical forum, would strongly oppose the sentiment tbh. The facts don’t lie. Any team Newey left, stopped winning. The biggest proof of his critical input to success is the fact that his car and team that he oversaw, produced the most dominant results in a season in f1 history, to leaving a few months later, stopping work on the car, and the team (with all the pieces remaining) fell off completely and car development wise, have been unrecognisable. Before he left, their upgrades would work consistently enough. That changed.

They got overtaken despite such a march on the regs that Newey gave them. Up until he left, they left behind the competition even further. Right after he leaves, they’re overtaken by a team that was at the back.

[AR3-GP]

That's probably the most succinct way of trying to say what I'm trying to say.

A number of TP's who ended up washing out in F1 likely could have had good, strong careers if their entire technical department was led by Adrian Newey and with the resources and freedom that Red Bull ownership allowed the whole dang time. lol

Again, I'm still giving credit Horner credit for helping build and steer RBR into what they became, but once the oiled ship was running at full steam, I very much do think Horner's actual importance to further success was much less impactful. To the degree that others could have jumped in and done a similarly good job. Everything is made easier when you have a good car(and drivers).

Why didn't Frank Williams and Ron Dennis manage to keep Adrian Newey at Mclaren or Williams for 18 years?

[Seanspeed]

Yeah, I've thought plenty about Horner keeping RBR running with strong personalities like Newey, Marko, and Materschitz together when all of them have no problem running over people to get what they want.

Undoubtedly, Newey was the key to unlocking success on the track, but the team still had to be run with direction.

I don't see why Horner's operational experience isn't something that would be highly valued by Elkann and the rest of Ferrari management. I think it's something Ferrari has missed since Todt left. No one is expecting Horner to be Newey. What they are expecting is someone who's competence is running a race team despite the strong personalities and stakeholders on all sides.

Vasseur is no slouch and I expect him to keep his job, but again, dismissing Horner like he's average is a mistake.

As I say in another post above - everything is made easier if the car is good. That's the most fundamentally important part of F1. You get that part right, it makes it much easier to put the rest of the pieces into place. And Horner had Newey, the GOAT, running the technical department his ENTIRE time as Team Principal. That provided a level of long-term failsafe for Horner that basically no other long tenured TP in history had the luxury of.

Horner without that sort of privileged situation does not find the success he did. And it also makes the value of his experience less valuable when applied to another situation because he's not going to have that same privileged situation. We're right now seeing what happens when you take away Horner's failsafe.

Now maybe Horner would still have some value again as a TP for a young team with a similar laissez faire attitude as Red Bull's ownership had, building up something that had potential. But Ferrari is not that kind of team. What Ferrari needs most of all is having an efficient technical department with a strong lead and vision. That's nothing that Horner ever had to concern himself with, because Newey covered that side of things.

[Seanspeed]

That's probably the most succinct way of trying to say what I'm trying to say.

A number of TP's who ended up washing out in F1 likely could have had good, strong careers if their entire technical department was led by Adrian Newey and with the resources and freedom that Red Bull ownership allowed the whole dang time. lol

Again, I'm still giving credit Horner credit for helping build and steer RBR into what they became, but once the oiled ship was running at full steam, I very much do think Horner's actual importance to further success was much less impactful. To the degree that others could have jumped in and done a similarly good job. Everything is made easier when you have a good car(and drivers).

Why didn't Frank Williams and Ron Dennis manage to keep Adrian Newey at Mclaren or Williams for 18 years?

With how DC tells it, it was Mateschitz and Berger that convinced Newey to come to Red Bull, and would have been the people to offer him the increased level of responsibility and freedom that he got there. Obviously Horner would have had to have been good with this and willingly enabled it, but again, that doesn't take any particular genius.

Though regardless, the point is that Horner doesn't have Newey in his pocket anymore. No matter what any ownership or whoever could have to say about it, Horner would now come alone and without that magic card in his pocket. He wouldn't have the GOAT handling the whole technical side of the team, leaving him to handle other matters.

And really, it is the technical side that Ferrari is most in need of improving. Does Horner have the expertise to handle this? In a way that would clearly be an improvement on somebody like Fred Vasseur?

[dans79]

imo the best take so far!