Red Bull RB18

[Jolle]

Very nice pictures of the T-Tray area, as well as the strakes below the floor on the RB18

https://i.imgur.com/700AJzr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/v4YSiHK.jpg

Vía Butch_on_Racing

The tea tray or lack there of is very interesting.
I am not sure if this is in relation to allosing the car to come closer to the ground while running more rake.
But with a tea tray it will limit a raked car from putting the tunnels as close as possible.
And this explains why they have a spring under that keel. They will squeeze the front into the ground then pivot the rear about this point to bring more of the car closer to the ground.

Is there a spring in their keel? The picture that was leaked on Twitter (claiming to be a shot of the Red Bull) was the Haas.

A big reason to have some kind of spring there I can think of is driver safety. They are sitting more or less with their spines directly on the floor, so anything they hit (curb for instance) can cause a peak in G-forces where you really don't want it. By having a spring system right at the point where you hit something, you can take the spine crushing edge off of it.

[Just_a_fan]

Very nice pictures of the T-Tray area, as well as the strakes below the floor on the RB18

https://i.imgur.com/700AJzr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/v4YSiHK.jpg

Vía Butch_on_Racing

It seems that the strakes dont go into the tunnel at all, but immediately to the side of the floor. Alfa romeo seems to have a similar solution.

Seems like they made very sure the camera was covered in flowviz too.

I think they all do that with the strakes, so it's not a unique solution.

What is interesting is the shaping of the floor further back. We can just make out the slope down to the floor edge rather than an inverted U-shaped tunnel.

[Just_a_fan]

right it was the Hass. But looking on that slot at the front and the different panels.. I would suspect a spring and damper maybe in there. The car will ride on that keel quite often. The slot may have sensors or camera or it may be to allow adjustment.

Red Bull run their oil tank in this location and the slot is probably just a sight-glass to enable that to be assessed.

[ringo]

Any images of the oil tank?
Thats an interesting area and it makes sense to have the weight down there.

[PlatinumZealot]

right it was the Hass. But looking on that slot at the front and the different panels.. I would suspect a spring and damper maybe in there. The car will ride on that keel quite often. The slot may have sensors or camera or it may be to allow adjustment.

Red Bull run their oil tank in this location and the slot is probably just a sight-glass to enable that to be assessed.

Which oil tank? Hot engine oil nestled away under the driver's bum? Where is the vent? Sounds like disaster waiting to happen.

Double-check and confirm this.

[humble sabot]

Something like that but it depends on the spring's properties. Rough sketch --> Radius arm in blue, leaf spring in orange:

https://i.imgur.com/BDuCooj.jpg

This wouldn't describe well the member in question. You can see in the close up shots that it's thinnest through the chassis section, particularly through the point where the pivot would normally be. Whether it's being used as a spring rather than as a flexure would require seeing what's going on where the pull rods enter the chassis. Since we're dealing with composites here the whole layup schedule has to be taken into account, from the fibre selection, orientation and especially the matrix. If they're using it primarily as a flexure then it's relatively trivial to use the earlier keel style technology; but if they're using it as a spring I would expect that this has been a long term project for the team because a lot of factors have to be controlled for to achieve the desired behaviour, whereas a little machined titanium torsion spring is a very easy thing to simulate and have perfect correlation.

One might even say that if it's a flexure it'll probably be safely the same design all year, but if it's a spring they'll bring new ones every weekend, between adjusting spring rates for specific tracks and getting a handle on how to build this spring for this particular car and its aero behaviour.

[vorticism]

This wouldn't describe well the member in question. You can see in the close up shots that it's thinnest through the chassis section, particularly through the point where the pivot would normally be. Whether it's being used as a spring rather than as a flexure would require seeing what's going on where the pull rods enter the chassis. Since we're dealing with composites here the whole layup schedule has to be taken into account, from the fibre selection, orientation and especially the matrix. If they're using it primarily as a flexure then it's relatively trivial to use the earlier keel style technology; but if they're using it as a spring I would expect that this has been a long term project for the team because a lot of factors have to be controlled for to achieve the desired behaviour, whereas a little machined titanium torsion spring is a very easy thing to simulate and have perfect correlation.

One might even say that if it's a flexure it'll probably be safely the same design all year, but if it's a spring they'll bring new ones every weekend, between adjusting spring rates for specific tracks and getting a handle on how to build this spring for this particular car and its aero behaviour.

Don't mistake the aero cover for the arm thickness. It appears thicker through the bulkhead on the RB16 (below), and I would assume the case is the same here, as on all the other suspension arms as well, as they usually have aero covers. Regardless, a flexible bar has to trace a non-round arc. Perhaps negligible in this application, but nonetheless.

Looking closely it appears the RB16 may have had flexure mounts on the uppers arms as well, there's scarcely any gaps visible where it mounts to the chassis. Incidentally you can see a wheel tether on that arm but not on the longbow (same as RB18).

I agree there may be a trade off in precision regarding a torsion spring versus a long cantilevered leaf spring.

[humble sabot]

true, the covers are not the same as the structural member, but comparing the lower member on the 16, to the upper member on the 18 it looks like at the very least the change in diameter is more significant, and the fairing I think it is safe to say will also contribute stiffness to the middle section.

[Airshifter]

Something like that but it depends on the spring's properties. Rough sketch --> Radius arm in blue, leaf spring in orange:

https://i.imgur.com/BDuCooj.jpg

This wouldn't describe well the member in question. You can see in the close up shots that it's thinnest through the chassis section, particularly through the point where the pivot would normally be. Whether it's being used as a spring rather than as a flexure would require seeing what's going on where the pull rods enter the chassis. Since we're dealing with composites here the whole layup schedule has to be taken into account, from the fibre selection, orientation and especially the matrix. If they're using it primarily as a flexure then it's relatively trivial to use the earlier keel style technology; but if they're using it as a spring I would expect that this has been a long term project for the team because a lot of factors have to be controlled for to achieve the desired behaviour, whereas a little machined titanium torsion spring is a very easy thing to simulate and have perfect correlation.

One might even say that if it's a flexure it'll probably be safely the same design all year, but if it's a spring they'll bring new ones every weekend, between adjusting spring rates for specific tracks and getting a handle on how to build this spring for this particular car and its aero behaviour.

I was thinking along similar lines. The more I look at the RB16 lower arm photos, the more I think they are employing the bar with two outboard mount points. Looking closely at the RB16 photo, it appears the bar is sandwiched between two flexible mounts. This leads me to think they are using the arm as a spring, where compression of the suspension allows the bar to flex in the center section, between the mounts. I am not seeing the same on the RB18, but with the covers off we don't know if we are seeing all that is relevant, or the entire as run setup.

If the other elements of the steering secure the wheel hub from movement, then the "flexing" of the arm is merely compression, displaced where they want it to be. This gets rid of the problem with the arc of a single mount point and spring flex as has been discussed.

Though on road cars it's a spring augmenting two somewhat normal A arms usually in modern use the spring is attached on full droop. Any further compression simply pushes the spring together, and the tension between the mounts results in more or less a slight "S" curve as the length is displaced. On a Corvette, the outboard attachment points usually adjust ride height, And with minimal wheel/hub travel on a F1 car, it's not much length to displace.

Essentially the RB16 turned upside down in a sense.

[vorticism]

Do you think they went with a rear mounted steering rack on the RB16 because of the location of the longbow? i.e. They didn't want to mount it in front of it. Now that it's on the topside of the bulkhead, they've moved it back to a front mounted solution. Maybe that implies they need regular access to it. Changing springrate versions, changing out those pillows.

[Airshifter]

Hard to say how all the various packaging comes into play. With the complexities of the modern cars I would think concerns with CG and simply space might trump over quick easy access. But in reality, at the level these guys are working at, they probably have to get to the majority of suspension components fairly quickly to set things up track to track.

I would imagine that they have at least a close grasp on spring rates needed before they arrive at a track, but with ever changing weather, they probably change constantly regardless. But regardless of the spring type, they've had to do it for years..... and some of that stuff is really packaged tightly. I'd imagine by the time they get through testing, they've done it enough times to do it all fairly quickly.

[warpomex]

Hard to say how all the various packaging comes into play. With the complexities of the modern cars I would think concerns with CG and simply space might trump over quick easy access. But in reality, at the level these guys are working at, they probably have to get to the majority of suspension components fairly quickly to set things up track to track.

I would imagine that they have at least a close grasp on spring rates needed before they arrive at a track, but with ever changing weather, they probably change constantly regardless. But regardless of the spring type, they've had to do it for years..... and some of that stuff is really packaged tightly. I'd imagine by the time they get through testing, they've done it enough times to do it all fairly quickly.

I seem to recall that one of the reasons for Ferrari to abandon a pull rod design was difficulty of access for adjustments or changes during a race weekend. So everything that can be simplified without sacrificing performance, will be simplified.

As mentioned before by others in this thread, I think the longbow is just to eliminate two pivot points. Bicycles have used flexing carbon parts to achieve suspension travel for some years now... and they are far less advanced than an F1 car. Could they have some spring characteristics? It could be.

[JonoNic]

right it was the Hass. But looking on that slot at the front and the different panels.. I would suspect a spring and damper maybe in there. The car will ride on that keel quite often. The slot may have sensors or camera or it may be to allow adjustment.

Red Bull run their oil tank in this location and the slot is probably just a sight-glass to enable that to be assessed.

Which oil tank? Hot engine oil nestled away under the driver's bum? Where is the vent? Sounds like disaster waiting to happen.

Double-check and confirm this.

If it's there. Could heat of the oil affect the performance of the venturi tunnels? Could heat be used as a performance gain in that area?

Sent from my SM-G9910 using Tapatalk

[SiLo]

Red Bull run their oil tank in this location and the slot is probably just a sight-glass to enable that to be assessed.

Which oil tank? Hot engine oil nestled away under the driver's bum? Where is the vent? Sounds like disaster waiting to happen.

Double-check and confirm this.

If it's there. Could heat of the oil affect the performance of the venturi tunnels? Could heat be used as a performance gain in that area?

Sent from my SM-G9910 using Tapatalk

No. it wouldn't be able to transfer any kind of real heat to the air, and I don't think there would be any kind of benefit to do so either.

[dren]

I would imagine that they have at least a close grasp on spring rates needed before they arrive at a track, but with ever changing weather, they probably change constantly regardless. But regardless of the spring type, they've had to do it for years..... and some of that stuff is really packaged tightly. I'd imagine by the time they get through testing, they've done it enough times to do it all fairly quickly.

I'd expect the teams have the on-track set-ups just about dialed in from simulator set-ups. They then would require small adjustments during practice.